C-Cards/ Qualifications or common sense?

[medical1]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...


The number of certification cards you have has absolutely nothing to do with how good or safe a diver you are.

People get "certifications" for activities they are not qualified to do all the time. Many people have cards for things they don't even have a clue about.

You can tell a lot more about a diver's skill and safety by looking at his rig and watching him underwater than by the pieces of plastic he carries.

Great statement! - A diver is only as good as the skills he PRACTICES

 

[Falcon99]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...


The number of certification cards you have has absolutely nothing to do with how good or safe a diver you are.

People get "certifications" for activities they are not qualified to do all the time. Many people have cards for things they don't even have a clue about.

You can tell a lot more about a diver's skill and safety by looking at his rig and watching him underwater than by the pieces of plastic he carries.

Right on!

In-line with those words, my weekend diving experience was an example of this mess. My buddy and I commonly do a VERY quick 90 foot dive (3 minutes or less at depth) at the beginning of the day for a multitude of training reasons (narcosis management, equipment 'quirk' learning, cold water protection adjustments, and especially ascent/descent practice).

An LDS owner who teaches a class among several other organizations that show up at this lake pretty much told me I was forbidden to do that until I received AOW. They told a friend that I could sue if something happened and wanted him to stop diving with me because he's with thier shop and I wasn't. My first thought was "WTF?"

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but 1) who the hell commissioned the dive police to regulate public lakes? 2) Why the hell did you teach me non-deco diving to 100 feet if you "forbid" diving below 60. and 3) SHOW ME THE FRIKKEN WRITTEN RULES WHEN YOU FIRST TRAIN ME, DON'T BRING THEM OUT ENIGMATICALLY WHEN YOU WANT ME TO PAY FOR ANOTHER CLASS. I wasn't issued a secret decoder ring with my card.

I SO wanted to release my anger, but kept my cool. The anger came from seeing the complete lack of credibility these training courses have with me.

I tried to remain calm, reminding them that I apply HIGH standards of safety to my diving, exceeding safety rules, am a military aviator, yadda, yadda, yadda.... I don't think it worked.. They got pissed, I got pissed... I really got pissed when it dawned on me there was more concern about getting sued than my safety, even when I wasn't associated with them!

My diving in Cozumel was teeming with "trust me" dives, complete with both dive buddy and DM telling me my computer was too conservative when I tried to warn them that I might have to call a dive due to "yellow zone" N2 on the computer. These are people who are supposed to be leaders - perveyors of training and safety protocols.


I am beginning to get a very bad outlook towards the diving community with each trip I take. Again and again, you (instructors as a community) tell us newbies that we need training, training, training. You say things like "call a dive anytime you feel uncomfortable".. When we get out to sea, it all goes out the window. "Your computer is too conservative" "No one else is having the same concern you are" "Don't worry about it.."

Reading the DAN accident report makes me want to vomit. What do you think the "training" qualification levels were for the majority of deaths are? (AOW!)

I have NEVER dived beyond the bounds of my personal training and ALWAYS brief my dive partner of my feelings towards training, and repeat my request thay they never question calling a dive around me. I also drive home a 100% promise that I will never question thier decision either.

(LOL, I just got a call from my buddy and we had this exact conversation!)

Instructors - until you as a community clean up your act, I will NEVER trust you to have my safety in mind. I have lost count..

I know this is harsh, and is hurtful to those who really care, but it is the truth. I have seen it - and I'm sure many more have too! Don't expect us to endure the antics without grumbling a bit...

Jim

 

[Lead_carrier]

scubacowboy once bubbled...
Personnally I dont feel its the Agency as much as the LDS thats out for all the profit, unfortunatley the instructors not only get paid to teach you, they are also on a commisioned pay when it comes to selling you your gear. Fortunatley for me my former instructor knows that I do'nt have "sucker" written on my forehaed when I walk in the shop, but he tried when I was new there. And I've seen him sell some crap that people will probably never need, hell he could sell a ketchup popsicle to a woman in white gloves, but guess what he needs to eat too. What you spend your money on is up to you, do some research before yopu you spend, The classes are worth it. And btw the stress and rescue class is a good one, sharpens your skills.

I'm not sure where you took your classes but yes, I do get paid to instruct, hopefully in a couple of years I'm make enough to have paid off what it cost me to become and instructor. I, along with a lot of instructors I know, do it for enjoyment, education, new experiences and getting to meet a lot of new people. At the same time I do not want to lose money every year by instructing. I don't know what type of deal your instructor has with his shop but I don't get one penny for any equipment that is sold. I will recommend what I believe to be the best equipment for the direction they want to go with diving. I have even taken new divers to other stores to make sure they got what they indicated they wanted and to make sure they don't get taken. Yes, I'd love to sell everything that they need but unfortunately most real dive stores can't carry every line and type of equipment. In Florida with a dive store just around every corner I'm sure things are a lot different than they are where I teach, thank goodness.

 

[ElectricZombie]

Falcon99,

The LDS owner is just trying to trick you into taking another class. AOW is truly a worthless certification. Just don't dive with him anymore, it's none of his business how you dive.

Your safety is up to you, not some idiot Instructor or DM. Be safe even if it means pissing off these morons.

 

[medical1]

Falcon99 once bubbled...


Correct me if I'm wrong here, but 1) who the hell commissioned the dive police to regulate public lakes? 2) Why the hell did you teach me non-deco diving to 100 feet if you "forbid" diving below 60. and 3) SHOW ME THE FRIKKEN WRITTEN RULES WHEN YOU FIRST TRAIN ME, DON'T BRING THEM OUT ENIGMATICALLY WHEN YOU WANT ME TO PAY FOR ANOTHER CLASS. I wasn't issued a secret decoder ring with my card.

Jim

You don't get the decoder ring till your a "Century Diver". Just a few more classes

 

[Otter]

Falcon99 once bubbled...


Right on!

In-line with those words, my weekend diving experience was an example of this mess. My buddy and I commonly do a VERY quick 90 foot dive (3 minutes or less at depth) at the beginning of the day for a multitude of training reasons (narcosis management, equipment 'quirk' learning, cold water protection adjustments, and especially ascent/descent practice).

An LDS owner who teaches a class among several other organizations that show up at this lake pretty much told me I was forbidden to do that until I received AOW. They told a friend that I could sue if something happened and wanted him to stop diving with me because he's with thier shop and I wasn't. My first thought was "WTF?"

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but 1) who the hell commissioned the dive police to regulate public lakes?

There is a current case awaiting appeal where the courts used the very phrase "Dive Police". A certified diver drowned while an instructor was in the water with his class {the diver was not in his class}. The judge said that as part of a self-regulating industry, that he expected Instructors to be the eyes and ears of the dive industry and act as the Dive Police. Everyone expects that on appeal, this case will be reversed, but there is a mindset out there that SOMEONE has to be the enforcement arm of a self-regulating industry {not my opinion, I am just the messenger}


2) Why the hell did you teach me non-deco diving to 100 feet if you "forbid" diving below 60

and 3) SHOW ME THE FRIKKEN WRITTEN RULES WHEN YOU FIRST TRAIN ME, DON'T BRING THEM OUT ENIGMATICALLY WHEN YOU WANT ME TO PAY FOR ANOTHER CLASS. I wasn't issued a secret decoder ring with my card.

Assuming you were certified by PADI as an Open Water Diver, then you WERE NOT taught to dive to 100' but only to 60'. In fact there is a question on the final which specifically asks you how deep you can go as an Open Water Diver (60'), Advanced (100'), and max recreational depth (130'). I can't speak to other agencies' tests or certification depths.

I SO wanted to release my anger, but kept my cool. The anger came from seeing the complete lack of credibility these training courses have with me.

I tried to remain calm, reminding them that I apply HIGH standards of safety to my diving, exceeding safety rules, am a military aviator, yadda, yadda, yadda.... I don't think it worked.. They got pissed, I got pissed... I really got pissed when it dawned on me there was more concern about getting sued than my safety, even when I wasn't associated with them!

My diving in Cozumel was teeming with "trust me" dives, complete with both dive buddy and DM telling me my computer was too conservative when I tried to warn them that I might have to call a dive due to "yellow zone" N2 on the computer. These are people who are supposed to be leaders - perveyors of training and safety protocols.


I am beginning to get a very bad outlook towards the diving community with each trip I take. Again and again, you (instructors as a community) tell us newbies that we need training, training, training. You say things like "call a dive anytime you feel uncomfortable".. When we get out to sea, it all goes out the window. "Your computer is too conservative" "No one else is having the same concern you are" "Don't worry about it.."

Reading the DAN accident report makes me want to vomit. What do you think the "training" qualification levels were for the majority of deaths are? (AOW!)

I have NEVER dived beyond the bounds of my personal training and ALWAYS brief my dive partner of my feelings towards training, and repeat my request thay they never question calling a dive around me. I also drive home a 100% promise that I will never question thier decision either.

(LOL, I just got a call from my buddy and we had this exact conversation!)

Instructors - until you as a community clean up your act, I will NEVER trust you to have my safety in mind. I have lost count..

I know this is harsh, and is hurtful to those who really care, but it is the truth. I have seen it - and I'm sure many more have too! Don't expect us to endure the antics without grumbling a bit...

Jim

Again, assuming that you are PADI O/W, then you have in fact dived beyond the bounds of PADI training. You chose the phrase "personal training", so I am not sure what u r trying to say....presumably, your first dive deeper than 60' was beyond personal training bounds unless it was with an Instructor or suitably experienced and prepared buddy. Whether that was within you your personal bounds or even his/hers is unknown.

As has been said HUNDREDS of times on SB, it all about the instructor. I teach quite differently than many of my peers. I do worry about each and every one of my new students and I would rather spend countless extra hours, that often go unpaid, to make sure they are the safest divers possible RATHER than just cranking em out. I also keep my class sizes small for the same reason.

I have little to no ability to address the ills of the world-wide "instructor community". I think you paint too big of picture comparing instructors in one part of the world with those in another...or even a smaller geography........which leads me back to your original question.

Is there a correlation between training and being a safe diver? Probably. But I have seen well trained divers acting unsafely and I have seen rookie divers acting safely. I have even seen normally SAFE DIVERS acting unsafely.

In terms of SAFE DIVING, often one of the best outcomes that training can provide is making sure the DIVER knows what is SAFE and what is UNSAFE and help them understand the consequences of acting unsafely.

Even in this litigious society, its [almost] always the individual diver's call. As an Instructor, I sometimes have to be MORE strict than the diver-student because they just don't appreciate the risk they put themselves in....or they are in denial, because the REALLY want to do it.

Craig

 

[medical1]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...
Falcon99,

Your safety is up to you, not some idiot Instructor or DM. Be safe even if it means pissing off these morons.

Dive like your life as well as your buddys life depend on safety! :cuddle: If your dive buddy isn't safe - find another buddy.
Better to call off a dive and dive another day. Once your dead there is NO other dayoison:

 

[Otter]

medical1 once bubbled...
Once your dead there is NO other dayoison:

I was sorta hoping that diving in Heaven would be 84F water, lots of beautiful soft and hard corrals, fish a plenty, and viz that was in the 300' range.

That being said, I am willing to wait until later to dive in Heaven as there is so much more to see here!

Craig

 

[medical1]

Otter once bubbled...


As has been said HUNDREDS of times on SB, it all about the instructor. I teach quite differently than many of my peers. I do worry about each and every one of my new students and I would rather spend countless extra hours, that often go unpaid, to make sure they are the safest divers possible RATHER than just cranking em out. I also keep my class sizes small for the same reason.

It terms of SAFE DIVING, often the best that training can do is make sure the DIVER knows what is SAFE and what is UNSAFE and help them understand the consequences of acting unsafely.

Its always the individual diver's call.

Otter <----I commend you on the way you teach. I took private classes for those exact reasons - so I am the safest diver possible. I also agree that you can't make a safe diver, but teaching the consequences of acting unsafely is a great start.

My instructor put it too me very bluntly- "It don't look good on my resume if my student dies. I'll take all the time you need to make sure you fully understand the info". That is the mark of a good instructor

 

[medical1]

I live in Florida - God's supossed waiting room. I can wait a little longer though..............