Can some explain to me what PPO2 is?

[perpet1]

Perpet1, I have a lesson plan sitting before me right now. I and Walter are not going "beyond what is actually written in the YMCA standard to teach your classes." It is the criteria, period. If you don't believe me, come on down and I will read it to straight out of our manual.

I know that 90% of you all know that we as YMCA instructors teach our student significantly more than the industry thinks is necessary. It's alomst looked upon as a stigma that we "over-educate" our divers. Many of you look down upon us for that very fact. Well, I for one take pride in the fact that some of my OW student are more advanced than many of you were till you took AOW or nitrox classes.

And we will continue to teach exactly what we have been teaching until I am too decrepit to do so.

Yes, you would be in violation of YMCA SCUBA OW certification criterion if you were to exclude teaching PPO2.


That obviously just isnt at all true. I challenge anyone to bring a 3-day PADI or SSI OW student against even the weakest of my YMCA SCUBA OW students. I double dare you.

We create some of the safest and most knowledgable new divers in the world. NAUI is the only other agency that is comparable, in my opinion.

you can flame me as you like now, I kind of expect it :lol3:

OK Proove that PPO2 is required per the YMCA STANDARD. In other words what does the YMCA standard say with regards to Daltons pressure law. I am betting that neither PPO2 nor the word Dalton appear anywhere in your standards. Remember I asked what the "standard" says, Lesson Plans ARE NOT STANDARDS! Now dust off that book on your shelf and see what is actually required PER STANDARD.

As an Instructor you can teach beyond the letter of the standard (at least in most agencies YMCA and NAUI being the two that you pointed out). All I am saying is thet the written standard for both are comperable given that they come from the same place.

For a YMCA instructor to put down the written standard for PADI is kind of funny. Now the way instructors apply it can be discussed and that is completly subjective and you will get a lot of arguement BUT if you put the stnadards used next to each other they will be pretty much the same.

Since you believe so strongly about leaving out nonessentials from an OW course, perhaps you should start an agency with such standards.

Walter was very pointed that it was the standards that are the base of the arguement. I could reply that sure I will develop my own agency (just kidding but there is a point here someplace) and I will subscribe to the WRSRC and guess what....... my written standard would look just like YMCA, PADI, etc.


I guess I am saying the standards are pretty much the same. Now this says nothing about Instructor quality or how an agency recommends or markets a class. Those things you could argue about (I would not argue because I too have reservations regarding the marketing efforts of some agencies) but do not think for a second the core requirements are that much better.

 

[Wendigo]

"Due to our high standards, YMCA SCUBA remains the only SCUBA certification organization in the United States to offer the C.M.A.S. international certification card."
-YMCA SCUBA website


There is a reason for that.

 

[perpet1]

"Due to our high standards, YMCA SCUBA remains the only SCUBA certification organization in the United States to offer the C.M.A.S. international certification card."
-YMCA SCUBA website


There is a reason for that.

And this proves what? Thats right, absolutly nothing. I am not saying that one organization is better then another. You are living in in la-la land if you think the standards for open water certification for PADI and any other organization that uses the WRSTC standards are vastly different. You can fool yourself into thinking your organization is superior (I personally think that YMCA delivers a VERY good open water course compared to others BUT that is due more to execution then core standards) BUT the core requirements are the same.

So does the YMCA Standard mention PPO2 or Daltons? Answer: NO

Is it ok for you to teach it? Answer: Absolutly

Would a YMCA Instructor that does not teach it be in violation of standards? Answer: NO

 

[Walter]

perpet1 ,

"Both PADI and YMCA use the same source to derive their standards (world recreational scuba training counsel)."

Neither derive their standards from that source. Agencies may modify their standards from time to time based on recommendations from the RSTC, but the agencies are the source for RSTC recommendations, not the other way around. YMCA standards are very close to what they were before the RSTC was formed.

"I am willing to bet the standards between the two are almost the same for open water."

How much are you willing to bet?

"I am also betting you are going beyond what is actually written in the YMCA standard to teach your classes."

Now, that is true.

"I am not saying this is bad but if there were a YMCA instructor not teaching PPO2 I am betting they would not be in violation of the YMCA standard."

I've never said teaching PPO2 was required. Dalton's Law is required, although you are correct that the standards do not list the individual gas laws.

"Yes I did say PADI and YMCA BOTH derive their standards from the same place"

Yes, you did and yes, you were mistaken when you said it.

"so you are out to lunch stating that one is that much beter <sic> then <sic> the other."

First, I don't remember making such a statement in this thread. Second, any such statement would be opinion. Third, even if they did both state with the same source (which they didn't), any changes either of them made from that beginning point could (and probably would) make one set of standards better than the other. Fourth, IMO, YMCA's standards are far better than PADI's. We can go into details as to why I have that opinion, if you'd like.

"YES, I will site my source: http://www.wrstc.com/agency.php?country=usa"

Your "source" merely says which 5 American agencies are members of the RSTC. If you are claiming PADI & YMCA are both members, you've proved a point no one is disputing. If you are claiming they have the same standards or derived their standards from a single source, you've proved nothing.

"For thos <sic> that don't know the WRSTC is a group that many of the agencies use to develop a set of consistant <sic> standards for teaching SCUBA."

Again, you are misinformed. The RSTC sets minimums. Any agency can exceed those minimums. Some do, others don't. They certainly don't "develop a set of consistent standards for teaching SCUBA."

"It is laugh out loud funny that your attitude that you are that much better since most agencies teach by the same standard INCLUDING YMCA."

Have you ever looked at standards from different agencies? I have. I've never seen any two that were the same. If you find two that are the same, I'd love to see them.

"if you put the stnadards <sic> used next to each other they will be pretty much the same."

Before I show you where I've done this, I want to know how much you're willing to bet.

"I guess I am saying the standards are pretty much the same."

I guess you are, that's obvious. It's also obvious you've never looked at standards from different agencies.

dbulmer,

"BSAC, CMAS will give you a run for your money too since you mentioned the world - I guess there might be other agencies (is GUE an agency?) too come to think of it. "

BSAC and CMAS are both agencies with very high standards. GUE doesn't teach OW divers yet, although when they do, I would expect their standards to be top notch. I would also include LA County as arguably the best in the world.

 

[diverbrian]

In the classes that I assist with, we teach PP of Nitrogen and Oxygen and do the equations on the whiteboard that show how you get to 1.4 PO2's. Of course, we teach a nitrox cert with our open water so that our OW students come out of the course with a nitrox cert.

You should have seen us trying to explain to an engineer why Table 3 (Residual Nitrogen) tables work that the way that they do. It took some doing to explain that although those tables have minutes at depth listed, that it isn't an exact science.

BTW, Dalton's Law comes in REAL handy when when talking about nitrogen narcosis. And many OW students from here do go to places like the Caribbean where a DM will take them to 100 ft. or better, so yes, we do feel that it is important to talk about narcosis. This is where Mike F. has a valid point. Dive tables are conveinent to explain residual nitrogen as well. We also show dive profiles from our dive computers to show the students what a "real world" dive looks like.

 

[diverbrian]

That is the law that explains pressure/temperature relationships.

That was Charles Law. Oops!

 

[perpet1]

perpet1 ,

"I guess I am saying the standards are pretty much the same."

I guess you are, that's obvious. It's also obvious you've never looked at standards from different agencies.

There my friend you are very wrong as I am multi agency certified and I do read what the standards actually say not just read them for what I believe they should say. Although I have to admit YMCA is not one of them. You did admit that you are reading into the standards to figure out what gas laws you need to teach since as you say it is not specified.

 

[perpet1]

There my friend you are very wrong as I am multi agency certified and I do read what the standards actually say not just read them for what I believe they should say. Although I have to admit YMCA is not one of them. You did admit that you are reading into the standards to figure out what gas laws you need to teach since as you say it is not specified.

Walter, you also did not answer the question that goes to the heart of this thread,

If a YMCA instructor were to not teach PPO2 would they be in violation of the YMCA standard?

 

[perpet1]

perpet1 ,

"Both PADI and YMCA use the same source to derive their standards (world recreational scuba training counsel)."

Neither derive their standards from that source. Agencies may modify their standards from time to time based on recommendations from the RSTC, but the agencies are the source for RSTC recommendations, not the other way around. YMCA standards are very close to what they were before the RSTC was formed.

"I am willing to bet the standards between the two are almost the same for open water."

How much are you willing to bet?

"I am also betting you are going beyond what is actually written in the YMCA standard to teach your classes."

Now, that is true.

"I am not saying this is bad but if there were a YMCA instructor not teaching PPO2 I am betting they would not be in violation of the YMCA standard."

I've never said teaching PPO2 was required. Dalton's Law is required, although you are correct that the standards do not list the individual gas laws.

"Yes I did say PADI and YMCA BOTH derive their standards from the same place"

Yes, you did and yes, you were mistaken when you said it.

"so you are out to lunch stating that one is that much beter <sic> then <sic> the other."

First, I don't remember making such a statement in this thread. Second, any such statement would be opinion. Third, even if they did both state with the same source (which they didn't), any changes either of them made from that beginning point could (and probably would) make one set of standards better than the other. Fourth, IMO, YMCA's standards are far better than PADI's. We can go into details as to why I have that opinion, if you'd like.

"YES, I will site my source: http://www.wrstc.com/agency.php?country=usa"

Your "source" merely says which 5 American agencies are members of the RSTC. If you are claiming PADI & YMCA are both members, you've proved a point no one is disputing. If you are claiming they have the same standards or derived their standards from a single source, you've proved nothing.

"For thos <sic> that don't know the WRSTC is a group that many of the agencies use to develop a set of consistant <sic> standards for teaching SCUBA."

Again, you are misinformed. The RSTC sets minimums. Any agency can exceed those minimums. Some do, others don't. They certainly don't "develop a set of consistent standards for teaching SCUBA."

"It is laugh out loud funny that your attitude that you are that much better since most agencies teach by the same standard INCLUDING YMCA."

Have you ever looked at standards from different agencies? I have. I've never seen any two that were the same. If you find two that are the same, I'd love to see them.

"if you put the stnadards <sic> used next to each other they will be pretty much the same."

Before I show you where I've done this, I want to know how much you're willing to bet.

"I guess I am saying the standards are pretty much the same."

I guess you are, that's obvious. It's also obvious you've never looked at standards from different agencies.

dbulmer,

"BSAC, CMAS will give you a run for your money too since you mentioned the world - I guess there might be other agencies (is GUE an agency?) too come to think of it. "

BSAC and CMAS are both agencies with very high standards. GUE doesn't teach OW divers yet, although when they do, I would expect their standards to be top notch. I would also include LA County as arguably the best in the world.

Interesting article http://www.iit.edu/~elkimar/design/organizations/

 

[Walter]

diverbrian,

"I thought...That was Charles Law."

Most people do, but Charles' Law deals with temperature/volume relationships. Important law for hot air ballooning, but no SCUBA applications.

perpet1,

"Walter, you also did not answer the question that goes to the heart of this thread,

If a YMCA instructor were to not teach PPO2 would they be in violation of the YMCA standard?"

I believe I did answer that.

"I've never said teaching PPO2 was required."

It is an interesting article. It's full of errors, but I agree it's interesting.