Can some explain to me what PPO2 is?

[IndigoBlue]

Saying that you err on the side of caution when giving students more information then required (or, as some would argue, useless to them). Like others have said before, attention is in finite supply and spending it on things that you do not need for OW-diving is not being cautious! Its quite the opposite, IMHO. These things will be taught as they become relevant to the kind of dives you are supposed to do...some might argue that new divers dont always follow these guidelines. To that I say: Spend more time in class and elsewhere teaching them to respect the guidelines! I actually think that that kind of information incourages new divers to feel that they are qualified to dive beyond limits as they "already know all about it"...

Just my 2 cents, feel free to disagree...

YOU are absolutely right Grazie.

The instructor needs to stay focused and the material must flow.

 

[DeepScuba]

I've had more than one discussion with an Instructor (I am not) with the safety of taking brand new, 7 dive old OW students to a 110ft, 39 degree, dark-a$$ dive.

They can't even dive in 30ft of water and we're sticking them in 110 ft of dark, free-flow prone, disorienting cold-a$$ water?

Giving "newbs" this much faith, and worse, the "Idea" of them being smarter/better than they are is arguably NOT helping them.

Grazie42, well said. My thoughts exactly.

Unfortunately, keep ehm dumb until they can walk. Give them time to develop the basics.

 

[RiverRat]

Not sure how they call 60fsw a "deep" dive. We did 55ffw in our OW certifying dives. Did just shy of 100ffw in AOW. Plan called for getting you deep enough to be narced and skills to let you understand you were narced. No way you got that "lesson" at 60 feet.

Hey Groundhog246,
Yes, for PADI AOW's deep dive it's minimum 60 ft. Of course that was max depth of the quarry I trained in We did the math problem on land and at depth. Yes, it was much slower, but not from nitrogen, from 50 degree water, pitch black vis, gloves etc. Even though I didn't get to feel being narced I certainly learned my share of skills related to cold, no vis, disorientation etc. I guess it depends on where you train and what facilities they have.

My LDS also wants you to do 15 to 20 post OW dives and get your buoyancy skills established, before you do AOW. It's hard to do a good compass course if you're still trying to get properly neutral, not to mention the task loading of a night dive

You have a good point here. I just wanted to get more dives in so for me it worked out good that I went right into AOW (and for the LDS' pocketbook too, not that I'm complaining I had HORRIBLE trim and buoyancy control and the Peak Performance Dive was really a waste. The night dive went well.
The NAV dive was stressfull, I burned a ton of air hauling all that lead around!
Trim and Buoyancy control was not really stressed enough. There is another thread out there where I mention that. All in all though those dives made me more confident. After help from many of you on the board I was able build a killer BP/W setup and learned what neutral buoyancy is all about. There may have been a few bumps in the road getting to where I'm at now but it all fell together and I've still got so much more to learn. This sport can be truly mind boggling at times, so much to it. I'm hooked

 

[Walter]

grazie42,

It's because most people agree with you and would rather take a class with low standards that those classes are the most popular. I believe it will always be that way. In fact, if some agency would start offering the 30 min class I outlined earlier, it would soon surpass PADI as the largest certification agency in the world. Since you believe so strongly about leaving out nonessentials from an OW course, perhaps you should start an agency with such standards.

 

[captain]

I don't know how old Indioblue is but I went through YMCA scuba in 1970 at the ripe old age of 26 and Dalton's law had been invented some time before that. That scuba course was like boot camp. You learned it or got left behind to make it up with the next class. Sounds like it hadn't changed a lot from what Walter has been saying.

Captain

 

[perpet1]

grazie42,

It's because most people agree with you and would rather take a class with low standards that those classes are the most popular. I believe it will always be that way. In fact, if some agency would start offering the 30 min class I outlined earlier, it would soon surpass PADI as the largest certification agency in the world. Since you believe so strongly about leaving out nonessentials from an OW course, perhaps you should start an agency with such standards.

Now I am not a PADI advocate but this is uncalled for Walter. Both PADI and YMCA use the same source to derive their standards (world recreational scuba training counsel). I am willing to bet the standards between the two are almost the same for open water. I am also betting you are going beyond what is actually written in the YMCA standard to teach your classes.

I am not saying this is bad but if there were a YMCA instructor not teaching PPO2 I am betting they would not be in violation of the YMCA standard.

Yes I did say PADI and YMCA BOTH derive their standards from the same place so you are out to lunch stating that one is that much beter then the other.

YES, I will site my source: http://www.wrstc.com/agency.php?country=usa

For thos that don't know the WRSTC is a group that many of the agencies use to develop a set of consistant standards for teaching SCUBA. Both PADI and YMCA are members so for a YMCA instructor to put down PADI is almost funny. Please do not take my word for it. Here is a link the the open water scuba standard http://www.wrstc.com/downloads/Open Water Certification.pdf

Since you believe so strongly about leaving out nonessentials from an OW course, perhaps you should start an agency with such standards.

It is laugh out loud funny that your attitude that you are that much better since most agencies teach by the same standard INCLUDING YMCA.


PLEASE Walter proove me wrong. Quote the YMCA standard where it says you have to present daltons pressure law. I am an instructor as well and although I do teach PPO2 I know it is technically above what I need to teach.

 

[Wendigo]

Perpet1, I have a lesson plan sitting before me right now. I and Walter are not going "beyond what is actually written in the YMCA standard to teach your classes." It is the criteria, period. If you don't believe me, come on down and I will read it to straight out of our manual.

I know that 90% of you all know that we as YMCA instructors teach our student significantly more than the industry thinks is necessary. It's alomst looked upon as a stigma that we "over-educate" our divers. Many of you look down upon us for that very fact. Well, I for one take pride in the fact that some of my OW student are more advanced than many of you were till you took AOW or nitrox classes.

And we will continue to teach exactly what we have been teaching until I am too decrepit to do so.

Yes, you would be in violation of YMCA SCUBA OW certification criterion if you were to exclude teaching PPO2.

Yes I did say PADI and YMCA BOTH derive their standards from the same place so you are out to lunch stating that one is that much beter then the other.

That obviously just isnt at all true. I challenge anyone to bring a 3-day PADI or SSI OW student against even the weakest of my YMCA SCUBA OW students. I double dare you.

We create some of the safest and most knowledgable new divers in the world. NAUI is the only other agency that is comparable, in my opinion.

you can flame me as you like now, I kind of expect it :lol3:

 

[MikeFerrara]

Jumping ahead from the argument of what needs to be included in an OW class to enable some one to survive a 60 ft dive...

There many reasons that I want my students to understand simple gas laws. Look how so many new divers dive. They get certified in 30 ft of water and promptly take a trip to Cozumel where they're going to do between 3 and 5 dives a day with some being to depths of 100+ feet. There's also a good chance they'll just follow and rely on a DM for their decompression planning. The DM is likely following a computer and maybe barely keeping in the "green" whatever "green is suposed to mean. LOL These divers have as much or more need to understand some basic decompression theory and the advantages of nitrox than any one else in diving.

Any one here know what the average ascent rate is for an OW diver ascending from their safety stop to the syrface?

Classes may arguably prepare a new diver to survive a shallow dive where there isn't anything to damage but those aren't the kinds of dives they're going to do.

IMO, at least part of the reason these divers aren't very good in the water (the other is just a lack or practice in training) is because they don't understand the mechanics of it or the implications. This sets them up to just go out and gain experience practicing doing things poorly which gets them no place at all.

 

[dbulmer]

We create some of the safest and most knowledgable new divers in the world. NAUI is the only other agency that is comparable, in my opinion.

BSAC, CMAS will give you a run for your money too since you mentioned the world - I guess there might be other agencies (is GUE an agency?) too come to think of it.

 

[RiverRat]

Jumping ahead from the argument of what needs to be included in an OW class to enable some one to survive a 60 ft dive...

There many reasons that I want my students to understand simple gas laws. Look how so many new divers dive. They get certified in 30 ft of water and promptly take a trip to Cozumel where they're going to do between 3 and 5 dives a day with some being to depths of 100+ feet. There's also a good chance they'll just follow and rely on a DM for their decompression planning. The DM is likely following a computer and maybe barely keeping in the "green" whatever "green is suposed to mean. LOL These divers have as much or more need to understand some basic decompression theory and the advantages of nitrox than any one else in diving.

Any one here know what the average ascent rate is for an OW diver ascending from their safety stop to the syrface?

Classes may arguably prepare a new diver to survive a shallow dive where there isn't anything to damage but those aren't the kinds of dives they're going to do.

IMO, at least part of the reason these divers aren't very good in the water (the other is just a lack or practice in training) is because they don't understand the mechanics of it or the implications. This sets them up to just go out and gain experience practicing doing things poorly which gets them no place at all.

Hey Mike,
Pretty scary....This is exactly what I just did! Well not exactly, but after my cert dives I booked a trip to Cayman. I did consider shallower diving in the Keys but thought I would have a better chance of good diving in GC weather wise. So I went from 30ffw dives to 100fsw+ dives. I bought a computer and was GLAD I did, especially given the multiprofile dives we were doing. I saw and learned from some fantastic divers out there but I also saw a few scary divers. Like you said, basically following DM's profile but none of their own, VERY fast ascents from 100fsw dives, poor buddy skills etc. Maybe this is why I hear a good majority of accidents occur with new divers with only say 20 - 50 dives or so? And yes, I got the Nitrox cert. BIG plus! Almost everyone on that trip was diving Nitrox by the way.
Anyway, keep doing what you're doing!