Can someone explain to me what the h*ll this is about??

[Whirling Girl]

I come in peace.

This thread does not need to become hostile. It has been an incredibly constructive discussion up to this point, please don't ruin it.

Before you hit 'send reply', please think about whether your post is going to fan the flames or put them out.

diverbrian, as usual, your post/rant made me think alot, thank you. Very well said. I just wanted to comment that one thing I think you acknowledge is that there are at least some instructors out there teaching these skills and they aren't necessarily affiliated with GUE. I think it's important to draw a distinction between the instructor, and the curriculum/agency they are teaching from/for. I agree that there are many really good instructors out there, dedicated to their students and to the sport. Some of them put emphasis on neutral buoyancy, finning to avoid siltouts, and ongoing, continuous practice on skills. But even the ones who don't aren't necessarily 'bad' instructors. The problem that I see is that a) there's an underlying assumption that these skills are very good to emphasize, and b) there's no uniform emphasis placed on these skills by any of the agencies (except GUE).

Before you try to kill me, I'm not saying GUE is better, I'm just saying that neutral buoyancy and horizontal trim and finning techniques are pretty much gospel in any GUE course. So, I would be willing to speculate that all of the GUE instructors teach their students neutral buoyancy, horizontal trim, and ongoing skills practice. Not all PADI/SSI/NAUI instructors do.

diverbrian, you said:

I may get the impression that the bulk of the DIR crowd is arrogant, inflexible, and wants to make diving a chore instead of fun.

I can understand where you might get this impression. There are DIR jerks just like there are non-DIR jerks. And there are DIR jerks who are jerks about being DIR. Sometimes non-DIR divers take it personally, and sometimes they should, when it's done in an arrogant or insulting manner.

But sometimes they shouldn't.

And though I know you were just saying that you might get this impression, but we, at least my DIR buddies and I, DO have fun. I wouldn't dive DIR if I didn't think it was safer and more fun than not diving DIR (and again, don't kill me, I'm saying that because it's just my personal choice.)

I don't know what non-DIR divers do regarding skills practice, but I have never seen any of the non-DIR divers I have dived with practice any skills on a dive. That's just my experience. I'm sure there are many who do. But my instruction through PADI did not emphasize it.

I think we all agree that neutral buoyancy, horizontal trim and good finning techniques, and ongoing skills practice are generally good skills and habits to have, for both safety and for the marine environment. They are also totally teachable in the openwater setting.

Maybe it's part of the DIR brainwashing, but I do skills on just about every dive. And sometimes we even do dives that are just skills. It's fun to play games in the water column. Does that make me weird?

Margaret

 

[diverbrian]

Hey Pete!

Those are some tricks that I will have to remember if I ever go for my instructors cert. Thanks! (Sounds like the way I had to do my Advanced Nitrox skills though). I always have a reference though. It is called a depth gauge. It drives people nuts when they never see me use a real reference point. I guess that getting used to diving the deep end of the quarry and in the sometimes murky local lakes does have its advantages on skills practice.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Whirling Girl once bubbled...
Before you try to kill me, I'm not saying GUE is better, I'm just saying that neutral buoyancy and horizontal trim and finning techniques are pretty much gospel in any GUE course. So, I would be willing to speculate that all of the GUE instructors teach their students neutral buoyancy, horizontal trim, and ongoing skills practice. Not all PADI/SSI/NAUI instructors do.

I can understand where you might get this impression. There are DIR jerks just like there are non-DIR jerks. And there are DIR jerks who are jerks about being DIR. Sometimes non-DIR divers take it personally, and sometimes they should, when it's done in an arrogant or insulting manner.

[/B]

I think that suggests that they are the best. Why shouldn't you say so? I have argued with lots of DIR advocates. Often pointing out that the lack of quality in other agencies was due to instructors not following standards or the intent of the standards. It has bugged me when some assume that if you're not GUE trained that you can't be any good. However, I have come to see how they get that impression and maybe it isn't true all the time but it is often true. Standards and intentions are only as good as the results produced by those using them. So, I would say that when it comes to providing quality training consistantly that GUE may very well be the best.

It isn't enough that an agency and it's instructors usually or sometimes issue cards to divers who have really earned them, they must do it every time. It isn't enough that some of an agencies instructors are good. Once is all it takes to destroy the agencies credability in this regard. I have personally expressed concern about the quality of the training I see to more than one agency. I assure you that nobody gives a hoot. OTOH, I'd be willing to bet that had I been talking to JJ about his instructors the results would have been different. Let's give credit where it's due. Let's require that the training agencies and instructors accept responsibility and be held accountable for the skill level of their newly minted divers whether it be a new OW diver or a new cave diver.

BTW, setting a high standard for diver skills does in no way reduce the enjoyment of the sport. On the contrary diving is so much more fun when you're not strugling to control depth and position and when you have confidence in your ability to deal with and avoid problems. Many of the divers I see are fighting and floundering their way through the dive and they just don't look like they're having fun.

 

[cornfed]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I think that suggests that they are the best. Why shouldn't you say so? I have argued with lots of DIR advocates. Often pointing out that the lack of quality in other agencies was due to instructors not following standards or the intent of the standards. It has bugged me when some assume that if you're not GUE trained that you can't be any good. However, I have come to see how they get that impression and maybe it isn't true all the time but it is often true. Standards and intentions are only as good as the results produced by those using them. So, I would say that when it comes to providing quality training consistantly that GUE may very well be the best.

It isn't enough that an agency and it's instructors usually or sometimes issue cards to divers who have really earned them, they must do it every time. It isn't enough that some of an agencies instructors are good. Once is all it takes to destroy the agencies credability in this regard. I have personally expressed concern about the quality of the training I see to more than one agency. I assure you that nobody gives a hoot. OTOH, I'd be willing to bet that had I been talking to JJ about his instructors the results would have been different. Let's give credit where it's due. Let's require that the training agencies and instructors accept responsibility and be held accountable for the skill level of their newly minted divers whether it be a new OW diver or a new cave diver.

BTW, setting a high standard for diver skills does in no way reduce the enjoyment of the sport. On the contrary diving is so much more fun when you're not strugling to control depth and position and when you have confidence in your ability to deal with and avoid problems. Many of the divers I see are fighting and floundering their way through the dive and they just don't look like they're having fun.

:applse: