Can your jacket do this?

[Splitlip]

Tacoing is a good thing where I come from.

How's that? I'm guessing you intentionally trap gas on one side or the other?

 

[Splitlip]

Agreed. My trim and buoyancy was absolutely no better in a poodle jacket than it is today in my wing. The wing is/may be more practical in some types of diving but what was shown in the video absolutely could be done with a poodle jacket......and is done every day.

I've seen divers use poodle jackets quite effecively. Walter and Scubakevdm to name two, as well as any number of divers the members may or may not know. I've never dived with halemono, so I can't say... .

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I've never dived with halemono, so I can't say... .

Neither have I.

 

[Splitlip]

halemano. Sorry.

 

[fnfalman]

The owner cum instructor of Ocean Safari Scuba in San Gabriel, California is the epitome of majesty underwater and he has a beat up old Scubapro poodlejacket. One of these days I would be good enough to emulate him.

Like I said, it's not the tool but the diver.

 

[Splitlip]

you betcha.

 

[*dave*]

The main points I was trying to make with the video are these:

The harness system can be adjusted to fit a small person, a large man or anything in between.
The wing helps facilitate horizontal trim.
Good trim and buoyancy control do not take 75 dives to master.

*dave*

Your reading comprehension needs work, unless it's a memory issue; maybe little this, little that? :kiss2:

With regards to BC's, my oft stated opinions are that:

the vast majority of World Wide dives are successfully completed in vest BC's

there is no test data on "drag" differences between modern BC's

there is no test data on "ease of venting" differences between modern BC's

Other than that I have also typed about my BC experiences and hypothesized on the drag and venting issues.

Your standard response doesn't address the points I raised, but they do bring to mind that :
A lack of evidence is not evidence
Before the airplane, 100% of transatlantic crossings were made by ship. That ratio didn't tip for quite some time, yet the advantages of air travel remained obvious.

Agreed. My trim and buoyancy was absolutely no better in a poodle jacket than it is today in my wing. The wing is/may be more practical in some types of diving but what was shown in the video absolutely could be done with a poodle jacket......and is done every day.

I'll have to take issue on the bolded statement, as I believe it to be entirely untrue. First of all, I don't believe 400# guys are doing try scubas "every day". I do Try Scuba for at least 50 people a year, but this was the first I've ever put in a BP/W. The video was shot about five minutes into it and I can't recall ever having seen anyone get dialed in as quickly. This doesn't happen "every day" and I attribute a good deal of his trim and buoyancy control to the inherent characteristics of the BP/W.

I could be wrong, do you have any links to vids of 400# guys doing Try Scuba in a jacket? I'd love to see them.

Dave, don't get involved in a crusade. The right tool for the job may be a bp/w and it might not.

You're better than this. You're a conscientious and highly proficient instructor. Work (and post) from your strengths, not from other people's weaknesses.

R..

Mom, is that you?

What your friends are saying is a crock of sh-it.

Divers who understand how to dive could dive in a vest, in a bp/w (I own both and look good in both), using old milk jugs and a spare air to compensate for negative buoyancy and even by discovering that pushing off the bottom with the snorkel in order to avoid looking like a crab in tights, is the best use for this device.

a bcd is a bcd is a bcd.

WHAT is not nearly as important as HOW. Dave knows this, which makes me think that he'll come around once someone reminds him.

R..

Rob, the guy has a total of 5 minutes experience at the start of the video. Yes, an experienced diver can trim out and control any system, but why not dive a system that facilitates good form and fit?

Rather than opinion, is it not fact that world wide on a daily basis, significantly more than half the recreational dives are made using vest BC's?

Rather than opinion, is it not fact that there is no test data on modern BC's from which to state one "style" BC has less drag or vents easier?

You need new material.

How's that? I'm guessing you intentionally trap gas on one side or the other?

Yes, for load balancing. I also believe there is additional stability provided by two, separated sources of lift.

The owner cum instructor of Ocean Safari Scuba in San Gabriel, California is the epitome of majesty underwater and he has a beat up old Scubapro poodlejacket. One of these days I would be good enough to emulate him.

Like I said, it's not the tool but the diver.

And a master carpenter could build a palace with nothing but hand tools.
As an instructor, it's really nice to give students the gift of trim and buoyancy control. Unfortunately, a good portion of the instruction required to impart that gift is focused on defeating the buoyancy and trim characteristics of their chosen BCD. In the case of the guy in the vid, the rig worked with him and my job was much easier.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The main points I was trying to make with the video are these:

The harness system can be adjusted to fit a small person, a large man or anything in between.
The wing helps facilitate horizontal trim.
Good trim and buoyancy control do not take 75 dives to master.

....

Your standard response doesn't address the points I raised, but they do bring to mind that :
A lack of evidence is not evidence
Before the airplane, 100% of transatlantic crossings were made by ship. That ratio didn't tip for quite some time, yet the advantages of air travel remained obvious.

*dave*, since you closed your OP with ...

Haleamano, are you listening?

... it seemed to me that you somehow think your OP "rebuts" something I have posted.

My standard responses are pretty much the only responses I have ever posted with regards to BC's. I do not think you can find one post of mine that is even close to the subject of any of the possible "rebuts" in your OP?

Many SB posters have typed something like "BP/W is more streamlined than Jacket." I have often challenged that statement, asking for some verified test results. Seems the only verifiable test results I've read of, the "evidence" actually led to the design that I like ...

The work was done, years ago, by someone who occasionally drops by ScubaBoard and was published (if I remember correctly) in one of the IEEE "Oceans" volumes. Going from memory, the lowest drag was the FENZY and the highest drag was a WaterGil (ATPac) wing style, it was thought that the "flapping" of the deflated wing was what raised the drag. This project lead to the design of the ADVi, the progenitor of all the current BCDs and a very low drag design that has since been compromised by hanging on lots of doo-dads,

[c]

[/c]

It seems like perhaps a more apropos analogy might be to compare, say, the SS United States crossing in 3 days, 10 hours, 40 minutes, with how long it took Columbus to make the trip? Or compare the Spirit of St. Louis to the Concord? Can you really compare an airplane in air to a boat on water and make it mean anything with regards to a scuba diver using a BP/W in water and a scuba diver using a vest BC in water?

 

[ScubaSteve]

To think that that 400# person was only able to achieve neutral buoyancy or proper trim that quickly because of the wing is crazy Dave. That credit goes to you. With proper weighting and placement and a poodle jacket you could have got him in proper trim.....and buoyancy has very little to do with a wing or jacket. You obviously did a great job of telling him what to do and he obviously understood very well. That is almost as easy to achieve with a jacket.....it is just as lucky to nail perfect trim first time with a wing as it is a jacket. Adjustment - I fully agree with you. So Dave, you and that diver are the reason it all went down the way it did. I would welcome you to instruct any of my family members.

I'll have to take issue on the bolded statement, as I believe it to be entirely untrue. First of all, I don't believe 400# guys are doing try scubas "every day". I do Try Scuba for at least 50 people a year, but this was the first I've ever put in a BP/W. The video was shot about five minutes into it and I can't recall ever having seen anyone get dialed in as quickly. This doesn't happen "every day" and I attribute a good deal of his trim and buoyancy control to the inherent characteristics of the BP/W.

I could be wrong, do you have any links to vids of 400# guys doing Try Scuba in a jacket? I'd love to see them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Diver0001]

Rob, the guy has a total of 5 minutes experience at the start of the video. Yes, an experienced diver can trim out and control any system, but why not dive a system that facilitates good form and fit?

Well.... I think we have a different way of looking at this issue.

Primarily (not entirely, but primarily) I believe that trim and buoyancy are issues that can be addressed adequately with training. IN that sense, I often see praising the assumed benefits of the bp/w as throwing gear at what is primarily an issue of skills.

That opinion is backed up by my observation (and yours as can be read above) that any experienced diver can trim out and control any system. Therefore, it is a learned skill.

Like you, I've also had students who had a natural feeling for buoyancy control. One young woman I recall landed in a fin-pivot on her first time under water and she never looked back.... She was wearing a jacket.

I do agree with your point of using the right tools for the job, however, so I wouldn't be in favour of rejecting the bp/w as an option any more than I would be in favour of rejecting a jacket as an option. I actually don't prefer one or the other. I own both, I dive in both and I feel comfortable in both for the purposes I have them.... In the case of a 400# man it certainly seems unlikely that a jacket would fit him very well and he did look good in the bp/w. In that case, I think you might be right to put him in one because it fit him.

That said, I'm still not convinced that his natural talent would have been suppressed by wearing a jacket. That seems unlikely to me and that's were we seem to disagree. You're making an assumption about how he would have looked in a properly fitting jacket without seeing him in one.... and where you see gear doing the job for him, I'm seeing talent.

R..