Cavern Diving

[Fox-Cousteau]

And I disagree with the comment on Devil's Den and Blue Grotto. While the land owners do allow OW divers to dive them (money driven - $40 entry fee)m that doesn't make them safe. Particularly Blue Grotto, which reaches a depth of almost 100' and does have a cave zone.

I wasn't giving my opinion, I was providing information.
Please note I intentionally left out a popular spring in Ocala for the very reason you presented.
I agree with your point on training and you are 100% correct in your assessment of both sites.
On the other hand, both BG and D' Den are set up for and used frequently as OW training locations. :cool2:

Fact: regardless of your agreement or disagreement of any of my comments, the owners allow ow divers into their locations (as does Ginnie into the "ball room" which also is cavern and cave by definition). If you are unhappy about that, perhaps you need to direct your efforts toward them.

A friend of mine has a wonderful motto, "Always dive within your training" I think if I could communicate only one thing to FishDiver it would be to "dive within your training"

 

[SkimFisher]

More training is always better than less. I am not interested in getting additional training for overhead environments.

That seems to be a direct contradiction. I agree with everyone else, get the appropriate training for the environment you wish to dive.

 

[tstormdiver]

Fact: regardless of your agreement or disagreement of any of my comments, the owners allow ow divers into their locations (as does Ginnie into the "ball room" which also is cavern and cave by definition). If you are unhappy about that, perhaps you need to direct your efforts toward them.

A friend of mine has a wonderful motto, "Always dive within your training" I think if I could communicate only one thing to FishDiver it would be to "dive within your training"

The problem there lies in that many OW or non- cave/ cavern divers "think" that those caverns are within their training. They're open to & "safe" for OW divers, right? It "should" be within my level training, because I'm a Dive Master & because it is open & safe for OW divers, right? I am neither condemning nor condoning the operators of such sites, but pointing out what can go on inside a diver's mind & how quickly things can go wrong to prove that a diver is beyond their training.

I thought exactly the same thing at Vortex a couple of years ago. I was down there to assist a couple of instructors as a Dive Con with some OW check- out dives. One of the instructors asked if I might like to explore the cavern/ cave there, up to the grate. I was curious,.... "SURE! I'd love to see what's there". We went in after supper at dusk. Long story short, we went down to the grate & started heading back. While down there it became dark outside. Note: there is NO cavern at night (no natural daylight zone). Yes,.... we were cave diving, not cavern diving. Going beyond one's training can happen that easily & quickly. On the way back because of the dark, even though we were actually in open water, we didn't know it. The sheer sides of the depression looked like the sides of the cave & the black sky (no stars, moon, or any kind of light shone that night) looked like the ceiling of the cave. We thought we had gone the wrong way somehow. We went back & forth into & out of the cave trying to figure out where we were. My buddy was getting rather freaked at that point. He figured it out & left me when I had my back turned. Left me,... I puttered back & forth for several minutes more before I covered my light & could barely make out his light above me, leaving the water. Of course, I followed him. My air was low at that time. I could have VERY easily become another cave diving death statistic that day. Shook me up good. When I got home, my instructor (also a cave & technical instructor) gave me a good butt chewing. Let's face it, I deserved it. I was an open water diver with no cavern/cave training & I was doing a cave dive. Even though I had a close shave with the grim reaper, he patiently explained to me how close a shave I actually had. I had no idea. I have since gone on to receive the proper training. I am currently a Intro- to- cave diver & nearly finished with my full cave diver certification. You can bet your buns that I remain very much within my intro level training limitations,now, unless I am with & under the direct supervision of my instructor & he has given me permission to go beyond those limits. Did I do the wrong thing that day? Did I make a poor decision? YES! to both. Did I learn from my close call? Certainly!
If relaying what happened to me, in the face of potentially being ridiculed for my poor judgment, will stop another diver from making the same mistake & having to learn the same lesson the hard way or worse, I will recite it all day long.

 

[SkimFisher]

The problem there lies in that many OW or non- cave/ cavern divers "think" that those caverns are within their training. They're open to & "safe" for OW divers, right? It "should" be within my level training, because I'm a Dive Master & because it is open & safe for OW divers, right? I am neither condemning nor condoning the operators of such sites, but pointing out what can go on inside a diver's mind & how quickly things can go wrong to prove that a diver is beyond their training.

Good point.

As it pertains to cavern diving - what irritates me is that there is much more to that kind of environment than just being able to use a reel, set a line, find a line and many of the other things you learn in the class. Many (but not all) of the OW divers I see at cavern sites have no idea what a frog kick is or how to execute one.

(I'll step off my soapbox for a second and admit that I was once in the same boat as a new diver as I'm sure many others were.)

So what happens in that case is that the entire site gets silted out and then my $30-$40 entrance fee basically gets blown bc I can't see my hand in front of my face. I personally don't think that they should allow OW classes\divers at some of these low-flow sites.

Sure, you might get out alive, but you're ruining the dive for many others. Get the training. If nothing else it will TEACH you how to be a BETTER diver. I always laugh my balls off when I'm at Paradise (which is often) and the OW's and OWSI's show up and talk a big game topside and then silt the place out.

Paradise is one place I think should be definitely off-limits to anyone with zero OH experience. Notice I say "experience" and not necessarily "certification". The latter means nothing without the former.

/rant

 

[FishDiver]

I have a slight interest in cavern diving. I say slight because I spent several days diving the cenotes in the Yucatan and have no desire to pursue full cave training. That said, I would like to take advantage of the spring diving in Florida just for sake of variety. Which brings me to my question.

What training and certification do dive sites in central Florida REQUIRE for cavern diving? I am certified for wrecks, can run a line, etc. In Mexico, a certified cave diver is required to lead non-cave certified divers. I would much rather dive sites with just my own buddy. Is this typically allowed?

I'd like to revive this thread on a less confrontational note. Maybe it was a nomenclature error on my part. I do not wish to cave dive without proper training. I would like to learn about freshwater spring areas that are suitable for AOW divers with some penetration training experience. I realize there are many additional sites I could dive with additional training, but I am not interested in pursuing that yet.

 

[Fox-Cousteau]

I noticed your and several fftopicosts. I've amended my orginal reply I hope I understand accurately your request:

Actually, there are three sites appropriate for your certification(s): Ginnie Springs, Devil's Den, and Blue Grotto.
Both the Grotto and the Den are located near Williston, Fl. They are about 5 miles away from each other. you can easily dive them both in the same day, however, the more economic thing to do is to dive one, stay locally over night, then dive the other the next day.
Ginnie Springs Ballroom is also available, it's in High Springs, Fl

 

[Dive-aholic]

I'd like to revive this thread on a less confrontational note. Maybe it was a nomenclature error on my part. I do not wish to cave dive without proper training. I would like to learn about freshwater spring areas that are suitable for AOW divers with some penetration training experience. I realize there are many additional sites I could dive with additional training, but I am not interested in pursuing that yet.

Again, and I'm not trying to be confrontational, there are no overhead sites in the fresh water springs that are suitable for AOW divers, even those with a basic wreck course. Caverns and wrecks are very different and pose different risks. A basic wreck course is very basic, especially when compared to a cavern course. It consists of one optional penetration dive while a cavern course requires 4 cavern dives. OW and AOW divers have died in "safe" caverns. There has been as least one such death in the Ginnie Ballroom.

Check out the videos on this page: Diving the fresh water springs.

Bottom line, it is not safe do dive in any cavern without the appropriate training. While you may have private land owners that are charging for access tell you their sites are "Open Water Safe" (Ginnie, Devil's Den, Blue Grotto), the major training agencies, overhead and non-overhead, all take the stance that diving in these environments is not safe for non-trained divers. Do you want to believe those who are taking your money, or those who have no financial interest in this subject?

 

[svs]

Hi FishDiver
I can share my recent experience with Alexander springs. I visited Central Florida couple weeks ago on some family business. I did 3 trips for ocean dives to Jupiter-Palm beach area when weather was good and there were also several days with strong east wind in the middle of April when most dives were cancelled. So I decided to take 2h drive in opposite direction for the Springs. Though Blue spring was the closest Blue spring require buddy present at the entrance and I didn’t have any. I went to Alexander. I arrived at Alexander spring around 9:30 am (week day) and I was first visitor at the park. I told person at the entrance that I am doing to dive and he gave me red wrist band to wear (no other questions asked). Spring area looks like a crater about the size of single family house in the middle of shallow lake. I was the only person in the park and I was greeted by friendly otter which circled spring area for about 10 min in a crystal clear water. Reminded me of sea lions which I saw in CA few years ago. There were also plenty of different and curious fish around (and some inside) of spring area and few turtles. There is not much to penetrate on the bottom of around 20ft. But it was fan to observe water gushing from several large and small opening in the bottom. It is possible to poke inside the largest opening for about 8-10 ft and shine light along pretty narrow tunnel for another 15-20 ft but that’s it. There are no visible formations inside. Overall it’s nice place to see, but probably only once. On my way back I met a group of 5-6 divers and I can imagine this pretty small place will be very crowded with 6 people inside.
And from reading about other places it looks like there is nothing in Fl as Mx cenotes. Unlike some cenotes which have multiple openings and have established trails where you can get complete cave feeling without being too far from the nearest exit, Fl springs have single opening with little day light penetration so according to cavern rules you can explore only small areas near the entrance.

 

[Ed Jackson1]

There's plenty of spring dives available in Florida for you without extra expense or training. Ginnie, Devils den, Manatee springs, Orange grove at Peacock, Blue Springs state park, paradise springs, and many more. Just use common sense when you go in and ask the rangers or attendants what you need to know for safety. I'm full cave and like cave diving, but I think there are plenty of springs and caverns to have fun for open water divers.

In the past most of the deaths were related to open water divers going into caves. That's not the case anymore. Most of the cave deaths are divers who are cave trained. That's probably because the open water and cave instructors have educated the public about the dangers.