CESA from 40ft

[Moerby]

Not sure I understand the “when you're at the surface” part. Did you mean something like “for the trip to the surface”??? I couldn't care less if there is any air left after reaching the surface.

Obviously not for breathing at the surface, that's why you have a snorkel.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think he meant to not waste air when at the surface so that you start your dive with the maximum amount (e.g., his instructor likes snorkels).

 

[Moerby]

I think he meant to not waste air when at the surface so that you start your dive with the maximum amount (e.g., his instructor likes snorkels).

That's right. If I remember correctly the instructor's advice was to give preference to oral inflation at the surface when your PSI drops below 1000. So basically when your air is low save it for breathing even if you don't plan on going under again (just in case you or a buddy get pulled under again by a giant octopus ). Of course in an OOA situation use whatever tiny little bit is available (In fact I'll probably suck a dent in the tank at that point!).

 

[rob@diveinutila.com]

I have to say this thread worries me from a number of perspectives... but the main three are this:

1) There should be more emphasis on planning to not run out of air. Gas (air) management calculations so that you do your best to know how much air you'll use during a dive, all things being normal. Getting into the habit of checking air regularly and asking your buddy how much air they have.

2) Please do not practice CESAs without a scuba instructor.

3) And diving with a minor you should take another adult with you so the child does not have to be your buddy in case of an emergency.

 

[Akimbo]

I think he meant to not waste air when at the surface so that you start your dive with the maximum amount (e.g., his instructor likes snorkels).

Now I get it, thanks.

 

[Akimbo]

It is not my intent to be argumentative, but I fear this post can be interpreted as criticism. Please take these words as an attempt at a constructive discussion.

I have to say this thread worries me from a number of perspectives... but the main three are this:

1) There should be more emphasis on planning to not run out of air. Gas (air) management calculations so that you do your best to know how much air you'll use during a dive, all things being normal. Getting into the habit of checking air regularly and asking your buddy how much air they have….

I have not read where free ascents are being recommended in lieu of gas planning or avoiding running out of air. However, we all know that divers do run out of air. IMHO, far too much emphasis is on gas management and buddy dependence at the expense of skills divers need to manage being out of air.

We dive because it is fascinating. Fascinating stuff is very distracting. What you thought was 10 minutes was really 25. Oops, people screw up. Equipment failures are rare but happen. Throw in a little poor visibility, a bit of current, and some cold water and far too many divers are found dead when they should have been able to safely surface with half a lung full of air.

Editorial here: In the early days of the Scuba, instructors did their best to scare the crap out of you about air embolisms. When the industry discovered that scaring the crap out of their customers was bad for business, the emphasis on free ascents, diving physics and physiology, and basic swimming started going with it. Fair enough, everybody needs to make a living. Unfortunately it has degraded to the point that free ascents are taboo to discuss and self-reliance is heresy.​

…2) Please do not practice CESAs without a scuba instructor...

The sincere concern you have expressed is disconcerting. Do you honestly feel someone certified to Scuba dive independent of instructors does not possess the knowledge to safely practice free ascents regardless of how shallow it is? If it is unsafe to practice without an instructor, isn’t it suicidal to do any form of a free ascent in an emergency?

…3) And diving with a minor you should take another adult with you so the child does not have to be your buddy in case of an emergency.

I suppose it depends on your definition of a minor child. We all know 18 year olds that can vote and are certified to dive with the judgment of a 12 year old. Several agencies will issue 10 year olds the same certification a 50 year old gets. It is the responsibility of every diver to judge whether to dive or not based on profile, conditions, and their buddy’s skills. Your point is well take, but the phrasing perhaps deserves more qualification.

 

[TSandM]

However, we all know that divers do run out of air. IMHO, far too much emphasis is on gas management and buddy dependence at the expense of skills divers need to manage being out of air.

Okay. It's been a long day, and I had too many really sick patients, but I'm tearing my hair out here and really wanting to scream and throw things.

Divers DO run out of air. EXCEPT IN A FEW CIRCUMSTANCES OF UNFORSEEABLE, CATASTROPHIC GEAR FAILURE, IT IS NEVER UNAVOIDABLE!!!!!! People run out of gas because they are inattentive, or narced, or because they attempt a dive that's way beyond the gas supply they are carrying. All of these things are avoidable, if a little prudence is exercised, and if the diver knows HOW to plan his gas. I have never, in six years, come anywhere near running out of gas (see my thread on the topic) because you don't have to do it. If you prioritize properly -- gas is life -- you'll check your gauges regularly, even when the thresher shark saunters by. You won't get to depths where narcosis affects your judgment until your good habits are properly cemented, and when you go deep, you'll plan your gas in advance, and know how long you should expect to be down.

People die every year from running out of gas. The solution is not better CESAs. The solution is avoiding running out of gas. It's easy. It doesn't even require the buddy dependence you are deploring -- it requires personal responsibility and a little education.

Brraaaaacckkkk . . . says Lynne, going to the kitchen for another glass of wine, because this kind of discussion makes her head hurt.

 

[Thalassamania]

What we have here is, to a degree, a clash of cultures. Cave divers, and those from that tradition, do not run out of air, doing so means death ... possibly for you and your buddy. On the other hand, old timer open water divers recognize that running out of air is no biggie and can be handled (in O/W) with a rather easy to execute blow and go, cave types tend not to see that and old timers tend to wonder what all the fuss and gear is for. My solution draws on both traditions, I try to plan and dive like a cave guy, but I know in the back of mind that getting to the surface when there's no ceiling presents very little problem. That is also the "dual mode" approach that I teach.

 

[captain]

What we have here is, to a degree, a clash of cultures. Cave divers, and those from that tradition, do not run out of air, doing so means death ... possibly for you and your buddy. On the other hand, old timer open water divers recognize that running out of air is no biggie and can be handled (in O/W) with a rather easy to execute blow and go, cave types tend not to see that and old timers tend to wonder what all the fuss and gear is for. My solution draws on both traditions, I try to plan and dive like a cave guy, but I know in the back of mind that getting to the surface when there's no ceiling presents very little problem. That is also the "dual mode" approach that I teach.

Exactly, I haven't ever run out of gas in 50+ years but the possibility that one day I might is no big deal.

 

[Akimbo]

Exactly, I haven't ever run out of gas in 50+ years but the possibility that one day I might is no big deal.

I ran a set of doubles “sucking back” empty on a fairly complex dive in the North Atlantic more than 35 years ago. It was not an especially remarkable event to me or the other divers onboard. These dives were easily the most intensively planned Scuba dives any of us had ever made. Everything went wrong on that dive; some were simple bad estimates, others for reasons foreseeable only in hindsight. I completed in-water and surface decompression and made two more dives that day.

This statement is not about any special physical prowess, intellect, or emotional control. The reason it was “no big deal” was because of the training I received in 1962, which taught all of us self-reliance and provided a foundation for continued self-learning.

It has never been a choice between gas planning, backup systems, and buddy techniques OR free ascents. Deep technical and cave divers take risks that the commercial diving community deem utterly reckless. Trust me, saturation divers know about gas planning, backup systems, and hard overhead diving risks. Free ascents in the recreational Scuba setting instill a level of confidence that allows people to avoid panic when two or three parts of their plan fails. Coming up on 50 years of diving at a frightening rate, I have never had to make a free ascent or drop weight in an emergency. I am confident that I would not hesitate to do either if it is ever an appropriate response.

Paraphrasing from a TV commercial: Your second pony bottle and regulator, $437.50 — knowing you can make it to the surface when everything fails, priceless.