CMAS & BSAC vs others Schools depth limit on Air

[Remy B.]

Have anyone done those long courses from CMAS ???, I guess it is not the same everywhere, the way a friend explained of all he did in the univercity it seemed a very complete course with lots of practice and class room.

 

[DuboisP]

CMAS has a max. depth of 40m and I don't know of any recreational diving school certifying people to go deeper. Besides the narcotic effect of being down there on air, recreational divers mostly use a single cylinder and such a configuration doesn't provide you enough air to safely ascend while sharing gas with an OOA buddy.

with a PpO² at 1.6, air limit is 66m, but limited to 60m.
In France, Level 3 (and more)(CMAS***) can dive to this depth.
Of course, the dive is short with only one tank, narcosis can be here, depending if water is clear-hot or black-cold

 

[chrisch]

Ok, understood. And yes I know the CMAS courses or whatever they were teaching in the univercity was as part of hobby/points curriculum to feel in for the studies they were doing, but so far I know they undergo a lot of more practice/training than the normal agencies that certify you in 2 days, or at least the 3 inviduals that I met, did go thru a lot more to optain the CMAS c-card.

Have anyone done those long courses from CMAS ???, I guess it is not the same everywhere, the way a friend explained of all he did in the univercity it seemed a very complete course with lots of practice and class room.

Which courses are you talking about? What did your friend do? There are many different levels of certification and training and the duration and theory will be very different between the courses. A two day certification is not "normal", PADI OW is the base level and is normally four days.

My IANTD Advanced Nitrox (which is recognised by CMAS) for example, took about 7 days including classroom time, spread over 6 weeks. This covers gas planning and the use of high oxygen mixtures to accelerate decompression. It is the entry point into deep diving before moving on to trimix (IANTD Trimix is about the same duration). In other countries this course might be delivered by other agencies that award a CMAS certification - in France it is called Nitrox Confirmée for example. On the other hand CMAS one star level is a very basic course requirement and might in some cases be less than the PADI OW.

Scuba is a practical skill with a theoretic element. like driving a car. Having a permit to drive a car doesn't make you a Formula 1 racer. To drive Formula 1 you probably start on karts or superstocks for a number of years, move through lesser Formulas and finally on to Formula 1. Think of PADI OW as a learner driving licence, once you have that you can begin to practice basic skills. Until PADI Rescue you are not really "a diver", just a "learner". When you can rescue other divers and be a reliable, worthwhile buddy you have "passed your test" and are a fully fledged diver. From there you can begin the more advanced techniques of decompression and the use of specialist gas mixtures. Most people take a number of years and many hundreds of dives to get to that point. Understanding about overhead environments and equipment redundancy is also part of that process. Ask the average cave diver how long they took to get to that point and how many courses and certifications they have done in that journey. For me it has been over 20 years between PADI OW and starting cave diving. Being in a cave is like starting over, you are a learner again - and must go through the training and the experience just like a new diver. And, yes, CMAS do have a an administrative role in equivalence for cave diving.

 

[Storker]

Which courses are you talking about? What did your friend do? There are many different levels of certification and training and the duration and theory will be very different between the courses. A two day certification is not "normal", PADI OW is the base level and is normally four days.

My IANTD Advanced Nitrox (which is recognised by CMAS) for example, took about 7 days including classroom time, spread over 6 weeks. This covers gas planning and the use of high oxygen mixtures to accelerate decompression. It is the entry point into deep diving before moving on to trimix (IANTD Trimix is about the same duration). In other countries this course might be delivered by other agencies that award a CMAS certification - in France it is called Nitrox Confirmée for example.

As has been mentioned upthread, CMAS isn't a school. It's a federation, an umbrella for different national diving organizations, and national requirements may well exceed CMAS' minimum standards for awarding the CMAS certifications. And instructors are of course free to require even better standards than the national organization's requirements.

Here's the syllabus from my national organization, the Norwegian Diving Federation:
CMAS 1*: 10 theory sessions, 15*45min total; 4 CW sessions, 6 OW sessions
CMAS 2*: Minimum 20 post-cert ocean dives, of which minimum 10 deeper than 10m to enroll. 8 theory sessions, 12*45min total; 9 OW sessions (some may be combined) including nav, rescue, deep and another "advanced dive" chosen by the student (e.g. night, wreck, current).
CMAS 3*: Minimum 60 post-cert ocean dives, of which minimum 20 deeper than 20m to enroll. 17 theory sessions, 25*45min total; 4 practical sessions incl. compressor, boat, dive leadership and first aid; 10 OW sessions including nav, rescue, search, divemastering, and student instruction.

On the other hand CMAS one star level is a very basic course requirement and might in some cases be less than the PADI OW.

I certified with PADI, and I can guarantee you that my OW training requirements were noticeably less than the syllabus for our CMAS 1* requires. And a standard issue warm-water PADI OW from one of the popular tourist destinations is normally less than that again.

 

[JMBL]

I certified with PADI, and I can guarantee you that my OW training requirements were noticeably less than the syllabus for our CMAS 1* requires.

Well, that's your own opinion, and your own experience. Seems fair and square to me.

But, after 24 years of diving, I can tell you have seen a large bunch of louzy CMAS 1* as well as Padi OW or any agency you can name : beginning is not an easy thing. Besides, you can get 1* CMAS certified in warm water countries with rather lax standards, it's not a PADI only fault.

Moreover, if you get a FFESSM level 1 (which is also a CMAS 1*) you can get certified without setting a fin outside the swimming pool. I'm not so sure that kind of CMAS 1* will be any better against a Padi OW...

And just for the fun of it, a personnal memory :

I started diving in 1990, with a Padi OW. Among the things I learnt, were using a BCD, a SPG, and an Octopus. At that time, CMAS 1* weren't allowed (in France at least), the use of this equipment. Still, because of some 'philsophical' (or should I say dogmatic ?) problems, I was considered to know less...

What seems to me really important is to know your own limit as a diver. Limits are personnal : it's not because it's stated on your certification card you're able to do this that you are. Maybe we should all learn to dive more with our brains.

 

[chrisch]

....
I certified with PADI, and I can guarantee you that my OW training requirements were noticeably less than the syllabus for our CMAS 1* requires. And a standard issue warm-water PADI OW from one of the popular tourist destinations is normally less than that again.

....
Moreover, if you get a FFESSM level 1 (which is also a CMAS 1*) you can get certified without setting a fin outside the swimming pool. I'm not so sure that kind of CMAS 1* will be any better against a Padi OW...

My understanding of CMAS one star is that it varies so much it is more or less useless as an indication of a person's dive training. All it (CMAS 1*) means is you can operate the equipment. Many countries (Norway clearly) have a basic level training program that only "equates" to one star. It lumps together syllabuses that let you go diving (PADI OW) with "supervised" grades FFESSM Niveau 1.

 

[Storker]

after 24 years of diving, I can tell you have seen a large bunch of louzy CMAS 1* as well as Padi OW or any agency you can name : beginning is not an easy thing. Besides, you can get 1* CMAS certified in warm water countries with rather lax standards, it's not a PADI only fault.

Moreover, if you get a FFESSM level 1 (which is also a CMAS 1*) you can get certified without setting a fin outside the swimming pool. I'm not so sure that kind of CMAS 1* will be any better against a Padi OW...

I'm not saying I disbelieve you, there's enough crappy instruction - not only in SCUBA diving - in the world to make that totally credible. However, I just can't wrap my head around how they are able to give CMAS 1* certs when CMAS themselves clearly state:

A CMAS One Star Diver shall be trained such that when assessed by a CMAS Instructor, he shall be deemed to have sufficient knowledge, skill and experience to procure air, equipment, and other diving services and to plan, conduct, and log open-water dives that do not require mandatory inwater decompression stops, without the supervision of a CMAS Instructor or CMAS Dive Leader, when properly equipped and accompanied by another certified diver of at least the same level, provided the diving activities undertaken, the diving conditions and the diving area are similar, equal or better to those in which training was received.

Emphasis mine, cite: One Star Diver Training Programme

Basically, if the 1* certified student can't plan and do a simple unsupervised dive under conditions he was certified in, he's not qualified 1*

 

[Remy B.]

Thanks, I learned new things, I guess CMAS depend a lot of the agency teaching the content.

 

[JMBL]

I'm not saying I disbelieve you, there's enough crappy instruction - not only in SCUBA diving - in the world to make that totally credible. However, I just can't wrap my head around how they are able to give CMAS 1* certs when CMAS themselves clearly state:


Emphasis mine, cite: One Star Diver Training Programme

Basically, if the 1* certified student can't plan and do a simple unsupervised dive under conditions he was certified in, he's not qualified 1*

Yeah I know, it seems crazy, but it's still possible technically. But there's a lot of examples like that : CMAS states clearly what's the content of training, but very often a certification delivered by an organisation member of the CMAS doesn't truly comply with the rules.

Have a look at the FFESSM level 3 (like me ), it's supposed to be a CMAS 3* diver. As so, supposed to be a dive master, but lo and behold there's nothing about that in the training of the FFESSM level 3. You've got to be a FFESSM level 4 (i.e CMAS 4*) to be a dive master. Level 3 is considered to be autonomous, there lies the difference.

---------- Post added October 23rd, 2014 at 03:14 PM ----------

I guess CMAS depend a lot of the agency teaching the content.

True enough. But if you consider that teaching depends also of the instructor and of the student, you've got a fair idea why there are so much discrepancies between a diver supposed and true abilities. Whatever we do, no human organisation is perfect.