Coast Guard divers should enter capsized vessels: jury

[uwhooligan]

Thought this might be of interest....


Coast Guard divers should enter capsized vessels: jury

http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2004/05/31/canada/bc_divers040531

Last Updated Mon, 31 May 2004 22:53:24 EDT
VANCOUVER - A coroner's jury looking into the Cap Rouge II fishboat tragedy in British Columbia has recommended Coast Guard divers be trained to enter overturned vessels.


Five people died in the accident off the mouth of the Fraser River in August 2002, including the captain's wife and two young children.

Coast Guard divers were on the scene within 19 minutes, but federal rules prevented them from making penetration dives into the overturned boat to search for possible survivors.


RELATED: Boat safety focus of Cap Rouge report

Instead, they were forced to sit and wait another hour-and-a-half until a backup team of military divers was flown in from CFB Comox on Vancouver Island.

That triggered a major controversy, and the federal government reversed that regulation.

The Coast Guard has also been told it should maintain a fully functional hovercraft that is equipped with the same type of advanced life support system found in ambulances.

The jury also wants Transport Canada require that all existing inspected fish boats that don't have stability data be subjected to roll tests.

The Cap Rouge II had rolled over just off the mouth of the Fraser River, and there were questions about just how stable it was. The jury was told that a heavy net and drum on the Galiano Island-based fishing boat played a role in the capsizing.

The jury also called on Transport Canada and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to develop a national safety program within the fishing industry.

Written by CBC News Online staff

 

[StingRob]

So I guess is a matter or luck most of the time... if you’re unlucky enough to end up on the bottom of the river caught in overturned boat you have to pray for the right people to come and save you. Even more when the right people are in they should first check for the “federal rules” before saving your life.
That’s a shame… I guess as a survivor or even survivor's family will have all the right in the word to sue for this crap.

StingRob

Thought this might be of interest....


Coast Guard divers should enter capsized vessels: jury

http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2004/05/31/canada/bc_divers040531

Last Updated Mon, 31 May 2004 22:53:24 EDT
VANCOUVER - A coroner's jury looking into the Cap Rouge II fishboat tragedy in British Columbia has recommended Coast Guard divers be trained to enter overturned vessels.


Five people died in the accident off the mouth of the Fraser River in August 2002, including the captain's wife and two young children.

Coast Guard divers were on the scene within 19 minutes, but federal rules prevented them from making penetration dives into the overturned boat to search for possible survivors.


RELATED: Boat safety focus of Cap Rouge report

Instead, they were forced to sit and wait another hour-and-a-half until a backup team of military divers was flown in from CFB Comox on Vancouver Island.

That triggered a major controversy, and the federal government reversed that regulation.

The Coast Guard has also been told it should maintain a fully functional hovercraft that is equipped with the same type of advanced life support system found in ambulances.

The jury also wants Transport Canada require that all existing inspected fish boats that don't have stability data be subjected to roll tests.

The Cap Rouge II had rolled over just off the mouth of the Fraser River, and there were questions about just how stable it was. The jury was told that a heavy net and drum on the Galiano Island-based fishing boat played a role in the capsizing.

The jury also called on Transport Canada and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to develop a national safety program within the fishing industry.

Written by CBC News Online staff

 

[scubasean]

So I guess is a matter or luck most of the time... if you’re unlucky enough to end up on the bottom of the river caught in overturned boat you have to pray for the right people to come and save you. Even more when the right people are in they should first check for the “federal rules” before saving your life.
That’s a shame… I guess as a survivor or even survivor's family will have all the right in the word to sue for this crap.

StingRob

I see no indication that they were qualified to safely enter the overturned craft. Certainly, the focus should be on safety, right?

I certainly agree that fully-trained divers should enter such a craft, to do what they can to increase the number of survivors. But, if they weren't qualified, the reason they didn't enter it is irrelevant, isn't it?

Since I am not trained well enough myself to enter [most] underwater structures, I have only a smidgen of an idea as to what perils might lay within.

In general, are Canadian CG divers qualified to enter overturned vessels?

 

[StingRob]

My point exactly focus in safety...
CG divers and rescue divers in general should have all necessary qualifications for such jobs. That's what I meant when I said check for "federal rules".
Once you send a rescue team at scene you have to be damn right these people have all skills they need for a rescue. I don't see the point on sending non-qualified divers on a rescue.

StingRob

I see no indication that they were qualified to safely enter the overturned craft. Certainly, the focus should be on safety, right?

I certainly agree that fully-trained divers should enter such a craft, to do what they can to increase the number of survivors. But, if they weren't qualified, the reason they didn't enter it is irrelevant, isn't it?

In general, are Canadian CG divers qualified to enter overturned vessels?

 

[pipedope]

The problem comes down to funding.
Every Coast Guard I know of is seriously underfunded, how are they to find the money to train people and buy equipment for penetration diving and then keep these people diving enough to stay proficient?

 

[bridgediver]

The problem comes down to funding.
Every Coast Guard I know of is seriously underfunded, how are they to find the money to train people and buy equipment for penetration diving and then keep these people diving enough to stay proficient?

Good point

If you want to have rescuers completely trained for every possible scenario at all locations it will cost the tax payers a ton and people don't like to pay taxes. This is where the risk analysis types come in. I'm not sure to what level the coast guard is trained to but they have to operate within a budget. Maybe they do have the resources where they should have been trained for this work but I doubt it. The costs for proper PSD extrication/penetration diving is significant.
By the sounds of it, they will be getting more training but someone will have to foot the bill. Unfortunately it always takes an event like this and public opinon to notice that increased training is required. Its always reactive and not proactive

 

[bridgediver]

Once you send a rescue team at scene you have to be damn right these people have all skills they need for a rescue. I don't see the point on sending non-qualified divers on a rescue.

StingRob

Again, what sort of rescue? I'm sure they were qualified divers but they can't (or shouldn't) exceed their qualifications. Think about the lawsuits if an untrained rescuer died in a rescue! If most of their work doesn't involve penetrations then I'm guessing that it was deemed an "acceptable risk" not to have them trained for this. I'm not saying its right but thats unfortunately the way it works

 

[uwhooligan]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2004/05/31/480749-cp.html

Rescue divers need more training: inquest

By GREG JOYCE


BURNABY, B.C. (CP) - The Canadian Coast Guard should ensure divers are trained to enter overturned boats, a coroner's inquest looking into the Cap Rouge II tragedy ruled Monday.

The 18-metre fishing vessel overturned in a few frightening seconds at the mouth of the Fraser River in August 2002, killing five members of an extended family, including the captain's wife and two young children.

The four-person jury's 17 recommendations also included that the coast guard should ensure a fully functional hovercraft is always available with the same advanced life support equipment as an ambulance.

The jury's recommendations followed a two-week inquest that contained high drama and sobbing testimony as professional divers expressed their frustration at regulations prohibiting them from immediately entering the overturned vessel.

The skipper of the vessel, Ben Mabberley, who lost his wife and two children, wept on the witness stand when he recounted the horrifying moments when he got out of the vessel but was unable to save his family or the others.

After the inquest, coast guard diver Chris MacKay said he hoped the recommendations wouldn't be ignored.

"I hope for the sake of the five people that lost their lives in this terrible incident that all of these recommendations are taken to heart and acted upon and not forgotten," said MacKay, who was part of the rescue effort that day.

At the time of the tragedy, coast guard divers believed they were not allowed to enter submerged vessels.

But last October, the coast guard announced a new B.C. dive team would be authorized to rescue people from submerged cars, downed aircraft and overturned vessels.

MacKay huddled with Mabberley the day his vessel capsized, trapping his wife Kathy, nine-year-old son Wyatt and 12-year-old daughter Amanda. His wife's two cousins, Roddy Wilson and Tony Head, also drowned.

Besides Mabberley, another man was pulled from the vessel.

Mabberley, screaming in grief and frustration, had testified about struggling to free his drowning family from inside the wheelhouse. Disoriented and unable to swim, he failed.

The tragedy became national news because, although a coast guard dive team was on scene quickly after the capsize, divers were prevented from entering the overturned boat due to regulations.

They had to wait 90 minutes until divers from the Navy arrived.

But afterwards, then-fisheries minister Robert Thibault said the divers didn't understand the regulations. A former regional director of the coast guard said the policy allows divers to enter a submerged boat as long as they ask a co-ordinator in Victoria for the go-ahead.

The inquest heard that those statements from the minister and the regional director were incorrect.

Officials from the union representing the divers said those comments were a slap in the face to the coast guard rescuers, some of whom haven't worked since the tragedy.

After the inquest, union spokesman Stephen Dunsmore called for apologies.

"From day one, as soon as commissioner of the coast guard and minister came out with bogus statements . . . we said they owe an apology to everybody involved.

"No one should have to take that kind of degrading statement and denigration of their work from someone that high up in this government."

The inquest heard the Cap Rouge II had a heavy skiff, a full load of fish and a massive 7,700-kilogram net. That and changing sea conditions combined to create the deadly incident.

Terry Tebb, regional coast guard director, said the diving policy had already changed as a result of the Cap Rouge incident.

"I think one critical thing is in the past there had not been the commitment to have a rescue dive program.

"We now have a rescue dive program. From my point of view that's the biggest hurdle we had to get over as an organization."


Dunsmore added that he was happy with the recommendations.

"We feel that they're a step forward. They're positive recommendations.

"They're recommendations that unfortunately it's taken two years and a lot of grief to come to."

But Dunsmore also alluded to the jury's hovercraft recommendation, saying there are none available at the moment.

"We don't have one today. We haven't had one for months and when the coast guard tells you that there's two hovercraft here and one's up on blocks and the other's floating out on the Atlantic that's a complete untruth."

"We can count and we have zero hovercraft available here."

 

[diverrick]

Having spent some years in the fire service/ rescue service, this thread strikes a chord with me. As for the training issue, it should not be that big of a deal. CG or someone funds for a small number of divers or instructors to go get the training needed in order to certify others in the group. They return and from then on, the training is virtually free to the agency, as the whole group gets paid no matter what they are doing on a particular day. (it's usually training, maintenance, or drills) In the Fire service I have seen members volunteer to pay themselves and attend these classes on thier own time, in order to make everyone a better rescuer. As for not going in, I wasn't there, but I would have to seriously consider breaking the "regulations" if it was a life or death situation, as this incident was. I personally have had to decide either I follow the rules, or save a life, and I chose the life side. I did get in a bunch of trouble from the higher ups over the whole ordeal, but my patient is alive today as a result of orders I disregarded that day. I have no regret and would do it again. I don't think I could stand there and let people drown right in front of me, because of some rule. Now if it was totally unsafe to go near the boat for some reasons, that would be a different issue altogther. If there was high surf, entanglement issues, clearly in danger of immediate sinking, Etc. You can try to be the best trained you can, but there are things that you are exposed in the emergency services to that none of the usual training could have prepared you for, or you have yet to receive. This is one of the fundemental reasons why I am no longer a firefighter. I couldn't stand all the non bendable regulations that got to the point that if it was at all dangerous, we couldn't do it! Hello... were are the the emergency service here! there is an element of danger. It drove me crazy at times. But I regress. sorry about the rant.
My heart goes out to the survivers who had to endure that accident.

 

[bridgediver]

Having spent some years in the fire service/ rescue service, this thread strikes a chord with me..

same reason I'm taking part in this thread

As for the training issue, it should not be that big of a deal. CG or someone funds for a small number of divers or instructors to go get the training needed in order to certify others in the group. They return and from then on, the training is virtually free to the agency, as the whole group gets paid no matter what they are doing on a particular day. (it's usually training, maintenance, or drills) In the Fire service I have seen members volunteer to pay themselves and attend these classes on thier own time, in order to make everyone a better rescuer. ..

Its not nearly as easy as this. I'm guessing that this is this within a volunteer service? Full timers have union contracts they must abide to - nobody works for free (like it or not). As I said, this type of PSD work is very complex - I can't think of a fire or ems related task that is more dangerous including haz-mat and confined space. Not something I'd want to get second hand training from by another team member.
What you are suggesting sounds good and I wish it would work that way but it doesn't. I've been at the fire/ems stuff for a while and am heavily involved with our PSD team and I have to tell you its difficult just to maintain what we have (could probably start a new thread on it)

As for not going in, I wasn't there, but I would have to seriously consider breaking the "regulations" if it was a life or death situation, as this incident was. .

I understand how you feel and my heart goes out to those coast guard boys for having to endure what they did and I certainly won't second guess their decision. What they did or did not do was right in my opinon. I only know of this incident by what is posted on this thread so based on what these articles say these guys had no dive rescue training at that time at all! If they did try I think they may have gotten hurt as well

If there was high surf, entanglement issues, clearly in danger of immediate sinking, Etc. .

there was something about a huge fishing net for starters...

Rescue does have an element of risk but there is a proper way and proper training for any eventuality. PSD work isn't something that should be taken lightly. I think most people would be shocked by the amount of injured and dead PSDs each year. Alot of them seem to have lacked the proper training for the task or exceeded their scope.
I plan to go home each night and I hope my brothers do to