Creation vs. Evolution

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Thal, not even the radical Jesus Seminar disputes the historical Jesus. Here are links to a couple of articles that discuss the extra-Biblical references to Jesus:

Mark Eastman Article.

Glenn Miller Article

J P Holding Article

Heck, we have as many, if not more, contemporary references to Jesus as we do to Alexander the Great. But, I am betting that you don't dispute Alexander's existence do you? :shakehead:
Sorry Marvel but in all three of your references combined there are not two contemporaneous crossreferences to Jesus.

As far as Alexander is concerned, many daily logs from his army survive. That is more than the two required references.

... You have one in Josephus. Despite your ignorant attempts to discredit him. You have thousands of early church documents that reference him. The Bible has several authors who mention him. The Quran mentions him. You have 10 disciples that went to agonizing deaths who refused to recant their faith. No one who has studied the history of Christ objectively agrees with you. You are so many deviations outside the bell curve on this one its laughable.

Amazing, you contradict yourself in the same post. So which is it. Are there no references or are did Tacitus mention him? The fact is you continue to dismiss the fact of the gospels. These are a written account of the life of Jesus. Furthermore, you have external references, which you yourself at least acknowledge the one. You also have credible historians who agree Josephus mentions Jesus once in his writings.

. and You discount the writers in the gospel who went to their deaths believing in this mythical Jesus. Yet, you can believe, without question, in a biped monkey from a few skull fragments found in a mixed basin of bones.
I take umbrage at your use of the word "ignorant" and I demand a retraction. You have placed nothing in evidence that suggests that I am ignorant concerning any of the issues that we are addressing. There is also nothing in evidence I have made any attempt to credit or discredit Josephus. You, on the other hand, are a completely different story. When is Jesus alleged to have lived? When did Josephus and Tacitus write? What is it that you do not understand concerning the word "contemporaneous?" Are you, perhaps, ignorant of its definition?

If you're discussing the existence of Jesus, most of the world is in my camp. You might find a few kooks who don't look at the totality of the evidence who disagree with it. As far as my theological views go, I guess they would be considered somewhat conservative. But yes, I've discussed them with many people, theologians, pastors etc. Do you have a particular viewpoint in mind when you state this or are you making a general statement?
Actually there is not a single reputable historian who will not tell you that Jesus does not pass the standard test. I'm truly amazed that none of you have come up with the cop-out that my Jesuit friends usually do at this point in the discussion, they don't argue my facts, they know better than to try. You've tried to argue my facts time and time again and you've always come up with the short end of the stick. They just say, "it's a mystery put there by God to test your faith." Man, the Jesuits have it way, way, way over you guys.
 
Last edited:
Major Religions Ranked by Size

Barely, I believe Islam claims Jesus was a prophet though. Without Islam you are at 33. However, we don't make decisions based on "mob rule". Having a majority of opinion isn't evidence of anything if that belief isn't based on empirical evidence. People used to think the sky was a ceiling shell and all were wrong. They thought the Sun revolved around the Earth, and all were wrong.

In your case, 33 percent of the world thinks Christ was the savior and all that it is indicative of is that 33 percent of the world believes in Christ.


Originally posted by CE4JESUS:

If you're discussing the existence of Jesus, most of the world is in my camp.


We don't just think Jesus Christ is the Saviour, we as Christians know that!

Something interesting I came upon on the internet:

Charles (Chuck) Colson was the Chief counsel for President Nixon between 1969 and 1973, he was known as the "hatchet man" and described as President Nixon's "hard man, the evil genius of an evil administration".

He has said the following, I'am quoting:

"I know the resurrection is a fact, and Watergate proved it to me. How? Because 12 men testified they had seen Jesus raised from the dead, and then they proclaimed that truth for 40 years, never once denying it. Every one was beaten, tortured, stoned and put in prison. They would not have endured that if it weren’t true. Watergate embroiled 12 of the most powerful men in the world—and they couldn’t keep a lie for three weeks. You’re telling me 12 apostles could keep a lie for 40 years? Absolutely impossible."26

It is also said and I am quoting:

No one has adequately explained why the disciples would have been willing to die for a known lie. But even if they all conspired to lie about Jesus’ resurrection, how could they have kept the conspiracy going for decades without at least one of them selling out for money or position? Moreland wrote, “Those who lie for personal gain do not stick together very long, especially when hardship decreases the benefits.”25
There are many hard testimonies like that.
 
But, by the scientifically accepted definition of "novel", this was a novel mutation. For three simple reasons:

1) It did not exist previously,
2) It confered a new biochemical property to the protein, and
3) This mutation has not been reported previously

Fine, define away. We shall see with further studies.

Likewise, by the way we define genes and alleles, this mutation will most likely be classified as a new gene; not as an allele. The reason for this is that we usually consider a gene to be a genetic element encoding a protein with a unique biochemical function. Alleles are simply varients of a gene that have the same (or impaired) functionality.

Fine. The last paragraph on page 7904 of the PNAS paper, Lenski proposes two possibilities for the mechanism. One is that some already present "cryptic" transporter gene has been reactivated. Lenski deems this unlikely as the "Cit- phenotype is characteristic of the entire species, one that is very diverse and therefore very old," and Lenski "would expect a cryptic gene to be degraded beyond recovery after millions of years of disuse." Interesting explanation. The other is that "an existing transporter has been coopted for citrate transport under oxic conditions." Lenski then says that "This transporter may previously have transported citrate under anoxic conditions," or "it may have transported another substrate in the presence of oxygen."

Either way, no new functional information has been added. Have the bacteria evolved? Sure. But this is not the kind of evolution that could eventually change said prokaryotes into fungi or plants or animals over time. These types of mutations haven't added the functional specificity that would be required.

We actually cannot say if that is the case yet. Firstly, there is no evidence that any biochemical functionality was lost - keep in mind the bacteria produced by this experiment had increased fitness.

Edit: Yes, they were more fit for their environment, but they did lose functional specificity (or at least early evidence seems to suggest that based upon Lenski's own words) and even lost other functions as well.
Mechanisms Causing Rapid and Parallel Losses of Ribose Catabolism in Evolving Populations of Escherichia coli B -- Cooper et al. 183 (9): 2834 -- The Journal of Bacteriology
It seems all the lines of e. coli lost the ability to catabolize ribose.

And others lost the ability to repair their DNA even.

And also, you seem to have the mistaken belief that evolution must lead to more complex organisms in order to "be true". This is simply not the case -

Actually, I don't assume that. However, the "progression," if you will, from single celled prokaryote to all the diversity of life we see today has been explained to have happened via the mechanisms of evolution. I'm not debating the obvious directly observable kinds of changes that are happening (for example the Lenski experiment we have been talking about), I'm talking about the prokaryote to all life diversity kind of evolution. It seems that kind of evolution going on in the Lenski experiment (and others) does not show the kind of evolution that could possibly produce the entirety of living organisms we see today from prokaryotes...even given lots of time.

in fact, the vast majority of evolution produces organisms with similar, or even reduced complexity. After all, life started off as unicellular organisms, and even today the vast majority of species (on the order of 99.999%), the vast majority of biomass (on the order of 99.5%) remains unicellular.

Granted.

And your evidence there was no gene duplication in the Cit+ bacteria is...

Just Lenski's own words from the PNAS paper giving his 2 possible explanations for the mechanism...both of which do not take into account gene duplication.

Maybe after he gets the details worked out we will know more. But thus far, it seems that mutation followed by a decrease in functional specificity has resulted.

Remember, e. coli can already utilize citrate. They only needed a way to get the citrate into the cells in oxic conditions. And based on early evidence, it seems loss of specificity is the explanation.
 
Last edited:
However, you're ignoring a rather simple part of evolutionary theory -

Again, I'm not ignoring anything. I've never had issues with the observational changes...except to say that the mechanisms don't produce the kinds of changes required of prokaryote to all life evolution.

species evolve to survive in their current environment.

Granted.

There is no drive to maintain fitness for past environments; indeed, such a drive could be quite detrimental.

Granted.
I already used this example, but by your logic we humans are less fit than fish, as we are not as fit in our old (aqueous) environment, as we have lost our gills.

Of course you should know that would never be my argument.

That of course is nonsence;

Agreed.

we're superbly adapted to our current environment,

I might use a different set of terms...but yes, perfectly!

and have lost the adaptations we needed when we were lobe-finned fish.

Of course I would never argue that humans were ever lobe-finned fishes. However, adaptations to environments via loss of features (i.e. genes, genetic diversity) is something I would argue.

By yoiur logic, evolution would only be true if we kept the fins & gills.

Again, that would never be my logic as I would never argue that at all.

The same it true of these bacteria - there is little glucose in their environment, compared to their previous environment (which also wasn't natural, but rather a lab, btw), and as such their ability to better use citrate is a vast improvement.

Yes, the same is true of these bacteria. They have lost functional specificity. Thank you, I have been saying that for some time now. It seems so far that the reason they are better able to use citrate is because of a decrease in the specificity of a transporter. How much more specificity loss would there need to be before this transporter can then allow toxins into the cell...or anything else?

And, as I pointed out in a previous post, depending on which "natural" environment you're talking about, the ability to utilize citrate, even if that comes with poorer glucose metabolism, may still represent an advantage. In the human gut, or inside of human cells, for example - in both of those environments, free citrate is more available than glucose. Which is why many infective e. coli pick up oxic citrate metabolism genes from other species.

And according to your statement above that the lab was their previous environment, the Cit+ bacteria are are vastly weaker than their Cit- counterparts (as posted earlier with a quote by Lenski from his PNAS paper).

So again, yes, the Cit+ bacteria are much more fit for the environment Lenski created for them. And, yes, they are much less fit in their previous environment. And, yes, mutations can cause increased fitness to an environment, however, it seems this comes about via loss of functional specificity...as stated before, of course.
 
Last edited:
deco martini:
We have sources about Alexander written by people who knew him.

Really? Hmmm.... From the link I provided that cites all the know sources of the existence of Alexander. Check out the bolded part:

The most valuable of the surviving histories of Alexander the Great is Arrian's Anabasis and Indica. He relies mainly on one of the contemporary sources: Ptolemy Lagos, founder of the mighty dynasty of the Ptolemy in Egypt. Ptolemy's credibility is greatly enhanced because it based his writing on the Ephemerides, or official daily log of Alexander's army. Plutarch, was not a critical historian, but, as he himself says, his purpose was to draw the moral lessons from the life of Alexander and the other figures whose biographies he wrote. Plutarch leaves out a great deal of military and other details.

Among the other surviving narratives of Alexander's career we have: ARRIAN, Quintus Curtius RUFUS, DIODORUS, PLUTARCH, and JUSTIN. None of the authors is contemporary with the events they describe. For us, the earliest preserved source is Diodorus, who lived and wrote in the time of Caesar and Augustus. Q. C. Rufus and Plutarch lived in the first century AD., while Arrian lived in the second century AD, and had high military position during Hadrian's reign. Justin had lived in the third century AD, but his work is an extract and compilation of an earlier writer. There were vast number of narratives or memoirs contemporary or near-contemporary with Alexander, but none of them survived. (CALLISTHENES , has written the official historiography of the campaign till 331 B.C., PTOLOMEI LAGOS, had written his memoirs, ARISTOBULOS, architect and engineer had written his memoirs, NEARCHOS, admiral of the fleet, has written his memoirs.

So, I guess you are privy to information that the rest of the world of history & archeology are not. In fact, one of the few scholarly articles that I was able to access on line states the following:

THE MAJOR LOST HISTORIANS

It is virtually certain that the royal chancery kept a record of some kind – in the form of a journal or diary – of day-to-day events. But modern scholars question how much detail it contained and how useful (especially for the military historian) its contents were. The authorship of the Ephemerides is attributed to Eumenes of Cardia or Diodotus of Erythrae, the latter perhaps a pseudonym. Where other writers claim to be quoting from the journal, the information is banal, dealing with the king’s eating, drinking, and sleeping habits. The work may, at least, have preserved an accurate itinerary and may have been consulted by the man who has been called Alexander’s “official historian.” This was Callisthenes of Olynthus, a kinsman of Aristotle (Alexander’s former tutor), who appears to have recommended him for the task. He served as a combination war correspondent and propagandist and appears to have sent his history (Alexandrou Praxeis or “Deeds of Alexander”) back to the Greek world in annual installments. To him we may ascribe a good deal of the Panhellenic sentiment that pervades the accounts of the early years and the rather heroic image of the young king. But Callisthenes fell into disfavor as a result of his opposition to the introduction of proskynesis and he was executed in 327 for his alleged involvement in the conspiracy of Hermolaus. The last events recorded by his pen appear to belong to the year 329. His value as a military historian has been impugned by Polybius – though one might add that Polybius was critical of most who wrote before him – and his treatment of Alexander’s leading general, Parmenion, bordered on character assassination. Nevertheless, traces of his work can be found in most surviving Alexander historians.

Again, I submit to you & Thal that you are demanding that the existence of historical Jesus be proven by methods that are not required of other historical figures from thousands of years ago. These articles make it clear that there is no surviving reference to Alexander by a contemporary that actually knew him. At least with the Gospels we have the testimony of people who actually knew Him & walked with Him for 3 years.
 
I did find this link after posting which opens with

There are many ancient sources on the career of the Macedonian conqueror Alexander the Great: the Library of world history of Diodorus of Sicily, Quintus Curtius Rufus' History of Alexander the Great of Macedonia, a Life of Alexander by Plutarch of Chaeronea and the Anabasis by Arrian of Nicomedia are the best-known. All these authors lived more than three centuries after the events they described, but they used older, nearly contemporary sources, that are now lost. In this article, the texts from the 'good tradition' are discussed.
 
Sorry Marvel but in all three of your references combined there are not two contemporaneous crossreferences to Jesus.

As far as Alexander is concerned, many daily logs from his army survive. That is more than the two required references.

Actually there is not a single reputable historian who will not tell you that Jesus does not pass the standard test. I'm truly amazed that none of you have come up with the cop-out that my Jesuit friends usually do at this point in the discussion, they don't argue my facts, they know better than to try. You've tried to argue my facts time and time again and you've always come up with the short end of the stick. They just say, "it's a mystery put there by God to test your faith." Man, the Jesuits have it way, way, way over you guys.

Hmmm... so, while you are are willing to accept the existence of Alexander the Great, even though the earliest source we have lived three centuries after him, you dispute the early eye witness accounts documented in manuscripts from Matthew, Peter, John & James- despite the fact that these manuscripts are dated from around the same length of time & even closer*. The experts in the field do not dispute their historicity. In fact, we do not even have any manuscripts of the accounts of Alexander- only references from other sources that this documentation even existed. Just contrast that to the relative age of the oldest surviving manuscript of the New Testament & tell me why you are so willing to accept Alexander & not Jesus. Here's a list of other surviving manuscripts that scholars accept when deciding if some significant historical persons actually existed. Link:

Time gap from date of author to date of earliest surviving manuscript

Tacitus 700 years
Livy 400 years
Caesar 900 years
Catullus 1,600 years
Aristotle 1,400 years
Plato 1,200 years
Aristophanes 1,200 years
Thucydides* 1,200 years
Euripides 1,500 years
Sophocles 1,400 years
Herodotus 1,300 years

*For several papyri of Thucydides, the gap is 500-600 years.

The first complete copy of the Odyssey we have is from 2,200 years after it was written! Yet no classical scholar would listen to an argument that the authenticity of Herodotus or Thucydides is in doubt because the earliest manuscript of their works, which are of any use to us, are so much later than the originals.

The date of New Testament manuscripts

Again the evidence is impressive. The best and most important New Testament manuscripts go back to somewhere about AD 350, the two most important being the Codex Vaticanus, the chief treasure of the Vatican Library in Rome, and the well-known Codex Sinaiticus. This latter codex (a codex is a book with leaves, as opposed to a scroll) was discovered by a German nobleman and scholar, Count Tischendorf, at St. Catherine's Monastery in the Sinai Peninsula in the mid-nineteenth century. On Christmas Day, 1933, it was purchased from the Soviet Government by the British Government for 100,000 pounds and is now the chief treasure of the British Museum. The Chester Beatty Papyri, the existence of which was made public in 1931, contain most of the New Testament and are dated AD 200 - 250. The Bodimer Collection in Geneva includes several New Testament papyri of the 3rd century, some as early as 200. The Codex Alexandrinus, also in the British Museum, was written in the fifth century, and the Codex Bezae, in Cambridge University Library, in the fifth or sixth century.

*The earliest piece of the New Testament that has been discovered is a fragment of a papyrus codex containing a part of John's Gospel, chapter 18, now in the John Rylands Library, Manchester. This was acquired in Egypt in 1917, where it was probably written, and is dated on palaeographical grounds around AD 130. This means that John's Gospel was circulating in Egypt within a generation of having been written, though he wrote his gospel, according to tradition, at Ephesus in modern-day Turkey.

It is because many of the significant manuscript discoveries have only been comparatively recent, that a good modern translation of the Bible is considerably more accurate than the Authorized Version (otherwise called the King James Version) of 1611. New tools and texts have opened up worlds of thought and life of which our predecessors a century ago were ignorant. We can also now say that the New Testament text is far better attested to than any other ancient writings, and this would include the Hindu Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita, and the Muslim Koran.

The cumulative effect of this wealth of evidence was summed up by F. J. A. Hort of Cambridge University, one of the greatest textual critics of the New Testament, in his book Introduction to the New Testament in the Original Greek. He said that, leaving aside the comparatively trivial variations between the manuscripts:

the amount of what can in any sense be called substantial variation is but a small fraction of the whole...and can hardly form more than a thousandth part of the entire text.

To quote Sir Frederick Kenyon again, from The Bible and Theology:

The interval between the dates of the original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.

It is probably true to say that the New Testament Greek text, as we have it today, is about 98% pure, and this is a conservative estimate! One thing is certain - no variant readings are significant enough to call in question any of its doctrines.

IOW, Thal, the evidence for Jesus DOES pass all the tests of modern scholarship. Somehow, I think that no matter how many of these experts I cite you will refuse to even consider their findings. Never mind that they trained for & have spent years investigating & studying the evidence. You, a layman, profess to know more than them. You sound somewhat like what you have asserted about those who have been arguing for creationism. You have taken a stance & it does not matter one whit what evidence is placed in front of you.

Frankly, I cannot take anything that you, or others, state about anything in this thread seriously when it is so evident that you, yourselves are willing to adopt a stance that is so easily refuted by the evidence of multiple independent sources & modern scholarship. You ask, no DEMAND that creationists take your science as gospel but refuse to apply the same standards to yourself.

Sadly & with all due respect, I cannot decide whether or not you are deliberately baiting & trolling for the sake of provoking controversy for your own private entertainment or that you truly do esteem your own intellectual prowess & knowledge above the experts in a field that you are not in. No one person can be an authority on all things, no matter how brilliant &/or well educated. If you choose to take the word of a small marginal & discredited group of historians than there is nothing that anyone can say or show that will cause you to revise that thinking.
 
So, I guess you are privy to information that the rest of the world of history & archeology are not.

Yes, because the IPs are well known and blacklisted from accessing wikipedia. :eyebrow:

Contemporaries who wrote full accounts of his life include the historian Callisthenes, Alexander's general Ptolemy, Aristobulus, Nearchus, and Onesicritus. Another influential account is by Cleitarchus who, while not a direct witness of Alexander's expedition, used sources which had just been published.
Source: wikipedia

These articles make it clear that there is no surviving reference to Alexander by a contemporary that actually knew him.

There were contemporary works. Later works we have cite those works. (none of the gospels were contemporary, if the Q gospel could be found and date, it might be contemporary and then we would have 1 source) Not only that, he conquered other countries in verifiable history, his picture appears on currency of the time (there isn't a single depiction of Jesus). His tomb was a public feature until 200AD. (as opposed to Jesus tomb which there is no consensus of where it was) He has a verifiable lineage. (Jesus lineage is different depending on which gospel you read and is not verifiable).

At least with the Gospels we have the testimony of people who actually knew Him & walked with Him for 3 years.

The earliest gospel (Mark) can only be dated back to 70AD. It was not written by Mark.
 
IOW, Thal, the evidence for Jesus DOES pass all the tests of modern scholarship.

You keep basing your evidence on outdated and incorrect thinking such as the gospels actually being written by the Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. You are starting with incorrect data and then forming a conclusion based on it. Then you argue the conclusion instead of the data.

Have you ever read up on who wrote the gospels? Have you ever wondered why Matthew, Luke (and much content from other non-canonical work) is basically the same material? Did Luke write his gospel reading over the shoulder of Matthew? Why did these men from that region get its geography wrong?

As early as the 19th century, the religious scholars with no internets or TV to disrupt their studies were noticing these anomalies.

Q document - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Hmmm... so, while you are are willing to accept the existence of Alexander the Great, even though the earliest source we have lived three centuries after him


We even actually have a letter he wrote. True story.

Of course, the web sites that feed you information about how if Jesus isn't historical then Alexander isn't either don't tell you the complete story. They provide comfort food so you can form a fortress around your beliefs.

If you have faith that Jesus lived, that is all you need. That is kinda the point of faith. It shouldn't matter that there is no real historical verification of the Biblical account of Jesus. That should add to the mystique. If you only believe in Jesus because you believe that his existence, deeds, and divinity are established historical fact then you are sort of missing the whole point of faith.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom