I am curious, has anyone ever done statistics on the certifying agency of divers to see if there is a trend? Maybe there is something in the way certain agencies teach, just a thought?
Curious about accident statistics
- Thread starter icyman
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wolf eel
Contributor
A trend to what ?
I would look at trends towards accidents from indivisual instructors rather than agencies. But then again, are instructors really responsible for the actions of their students after they are certified? I don't think so. As long as they met the requirements for the cert, how is an instructor to know if a student continues to follwo those standards or become a complacent idiot and get killed or kil someone else.
Don't bite!icyman:
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In the first place, SCUBA mishaps are at such a low rate that any comparison would fail any real statistical test of validity for such a correlation.
In general, the agencies with the most certifications out there have the most mishaps...
Rick
OP
wolf eel:
Well is there more mishaps per certain certification agencies? I am not trying to place blame, or say one is better than the other, but I am curious. I read about a few divers dying in the last few days, and I now know their certifying agencies, and I was somewhat alarmed because the last few were similar. It makes me wonder is there a trend in this agency that could be culpable for the end result?
OP
Rick Murchison:
I would understand that from a numbers stand point, and it certainly holds true from my observations. But does the methodology actually breed more incidents due to their lack of stressing REAL risks? I am sure you and I know who I am thinking about.
OP
Wendy:
But that brings up my question in its essance, is the methodology actually whats causing some of these incidents? Is it the method in which these instructors are taught? Or do they not stress being with your buddy enough? I have dove with tons of divers and granted most of them great, but what about the ones who left me to fend for myself? I was paired with them and after I jumped from the boat that was the LAST i saw of my buddy? It's rediculous how some people dive!
OP
Rick Murchison:
I am going to throw you some bait, let me remind you I am multi agency certified. Now with that in mind, how come SSI has never had a fatality? We all know PADI is the largest, and covers many specialties that are dangerous, so they are going to have the most fatalities! but lets look at the numbers??? I am going to try to find out more from the coast guard and other government agencies to see what the actualy numbers are, I am curious.
BlueDevil
Contributor
icyman:
That's an incredibily big claim! Are you saying that no SSI diver, anywhere in the world, has ever died diving?? I don't see how a statistic like that could be substantiated.
Rick Murchison:
True, which is why real problem solving is rarely done through statistics alone.
When we look at something like the DAN report whis is more so raw data than statistics (because nothing is really calculated) we do see some things.
For instance the fact that buoyancy control problems are so often reported on dives where injury or death occures. Does that mean that in each case poor buoyancy control is the root cause. NO. Doest it give a good gut feel for the fact that turning new divers out with better buoyancy control may very well be time well spent...I think yes.
If OOAs happen without equipment failure and we look in the texts and see the subject of gas management lacking, do we need statistics to tell us that we shopuld be teaching gas management? No
We don't need or have statistics to prove everything that we know. In manufacturing I've solved many problems over the years while the statisticians were running in ceircles. LOL
I may have used a little statistics to prove that the problem was fixed but rarely did statistics ever lead to the root cause.
In diving, time in the water seeing how divers dive, seeing problems and when/how they occure gives me a good intuitive feel for what could be improved. the only question is...Is there enough of a problem to make it wort addressing? The industry seems to say no. I disagree and think that it's worth it to save one. It's not a manufacturing process where pennies count. It's recreational and, IMO, if we can save a small hand full of people /per year or even per decade it would be worth a small mean increase in the cost of training. Now, that's kind of from the cinsumer point of view.
From the agency point of view small changes in training could make a big difference in how easy it is to make instructors, I guess. I'd bet real money that if you take the top 2 or 3 topics that I critisize training for being lacking in that many many instructors would not be able to explain those principles to you. For example gas management. Some agencies don't teach it in a meaningful way including at the instructor level. Trim and buyancy control while managing any other task would be another. It's often not taught and not required even at the instructor levels.
I don't need statistics to prove that being proficient in some skills makes diving more fun and safer.
Statistics do make a good defense for the agencies and it's all pretty convincing to those who don't know any better.
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