Dangerous dive shop ? what do you think ?

[Love4Diving]

Unfourtuntely, this is normal since the shop and the staff are on a tight schedule. If you want more flexibility and patience do the OW course at home where you can do it over 2 months instead of 3 days.

 

[Quero]

Yes, I agree that it's unfortunate. However, it's not necessarily true that it's "normal" and that the shop and the staff are on a "tight schedule." Shops have the ability to set their schedules as they see fit. It's primarily in the backpacker destinations that these 3-day courses are popular, and the reason they are crammed into three days is so that the shops can cycle more students through in a month and make money on volume by selling courses at a price that backpackers are willing to pay rather than delivering a course that takes a bit longer but costs more. We see this phenomenon clearly in Thailand where the backpacker-orientated shops at destinations like Koh Tao in the Gulf of Thailand typically run only 3-day courses whereas the shops on the west coast, such as at Phuket, tend to charge more for the courses and run 4-day schedules. One more day may not seem like much, but it's actually 1/3 more, and slowing the pace down by that much makes a substantial difference in the quality of instruction and in the outcomes in proficiency of the newly-certified divers the courses produce. Even excellent instructors are at a disadvantage when they are forced by their shops to rush through a certification course in three days. Mediocre instructors simply can't deliver courses of sufficiently good quality in that short a time.

 

[Mustard Dave]

Yes, I agree that it's unfortunate. However, it's not necessarily true that it's "normal" and that the shop and the staff are on a "tight schedule." Shops have the ability to set their schedules as they see fit. It's primarily in the backpacker destinations that these 3-day courses are popular, and the reason they are crammed into three days is so that the shops can cycle more students through in a month and make money on volume by selling courses at a price that backpackers are willing to pay rather than delivering a course that takes a bit longer but costs more. We see this phenomenon clearly in Thailand where the backpacker-orientated shops at destinations like Koh Tao in the Gulf of Thailand typically run only 3-day courses whereas the shops on the west coast, such as at Phuket, tend to charge more for the courses and run 4-day schedules. One more day may not seem like much, but it's actually 1/3 more, and slowing the pace down by that much makes a substantial difference in the quality of instruction and in the outcomes in proficiency of the newly-certified divers the courses produce. Even excellent instructors are at a disadvantage when they are forced by their shops to rush through a certification course in three days. Mediocre instructors simply can't deliver courses of sufficiently good quality in that short a time.

My club have an annual trip to Malta, using the same dive centre. This year one of the instructors who was there last year picked us up in the minibus. We had seen his pictures of his travels to Thailand on Facebook and one of our group asked if he liked it. He said he loved the place but he was a bit disillusioned with the quality of the training. He didn't go into great detail but summed it up by saying there are a lot of backpackers with little money who want to learn to dive as cheaply as possible, and consequently quality is compromised.

I was concerned to hear a lad from my club is now a MSDT in Thailand. I dived with him a while back and the only way I can describe him is as a dangerous stroke. At the time he was a trainee DM and I was gob-smacked exactly how he was. He was doing very short dives so he could log as many as possible in a day in order to get his 60 dives that were required to get signed off. Sometimes he didn't even leave the water between dives.

He moved to Thailand and I heard off one of the instructors at my club that he is now teaching over there. He works at a place where they run 'zero to hero' courses. They take a novice and take him all the way to RD. Then they do a DM internship and are signed off on their 60th dive. They then start the IDC and take the instructor exams as soon as they hit 100 dives. Once certified as OWSI, they then start teaching for the dive school. The newest batch of zero to hero candidates jump in the water with the senior instructors, DM and OWSI interns, and the new OWSI instructors. They run it as 'group' training (a massive cluster- is what I call it) and the water is like diver soup. The senior instructors then 'gift' their certs to the new instructor so he can get to MSDT in as short a time scale as possible.

 

[Quero]

My club have an annual trip to Malta, using the same dive centre. This year one of the instructors who was there last year picked us up in the minibus. We had seen his pictures of his travels to Thailand on Facebook and one of our group asked if he liked it. He said he loved the place but he was a bit disillusioned with the quality of the training. He didn't go into great detail but summed it up by saying there are a lot of backpackers with little money who want to learn to dive as cheaply as possible, and consequently quality is compromised.

I was concerned to hear a lad from my club is now a MSDT in Thailand. I dived with him a while back and the only way I can describe him is as a dangerous stroke. At the time he was a trainee DM and I was gob-smacked exactly how he was. He was doing very short dives so he could log as many as possible in a day in order to get his 60 dives that were required to get signed off. Sometimes he didn't even leave the water between dives.

He moved to Thailand and I heard off one of the instructors at my club that he is now teaching over there. He works at a place where they run 'zero to hero' courses. They take a novice and take him all the way to RD. Then they do a DM internship and are signed off on their 60th dive. They then start the IDC and take the instructor exams as soon as they hit 100 dives. Once certified as OWSI, they then start teaching for the dive school. The newest batch of zero to hero candidates jump in the water with the senior instructors, DM and OWSI interns, and the new OWSI instructors. They run it as 'group' training (a massive cluster- is what I call it) and the water is like diver soup. The senior instructors then 'gift' their certs to the new instructor so he can get to MSDT in as short a time scale as possible.

Yes, that happens. And the zero-to-hero courses in Thailand are clustered precisely in the areas where the backpackers congregate--most notably in the Gulf of Thailand. We call these dive schools "cert factories," and we can tell which new divers were trained there just by watching them dive in "seahorse" trim when they come over here to visit the better dive sites in the country. Fortunately, not all Thailand dive training is of this sort, just as not all training to be had in Indonesia is of the sort the OP experienced in the Gilis.

 

[limbo]

Yes, I agree that it's unfortunate. However, it's not necessarily true that it's "normal" and that the shop and the staff are on a "tight schedule." Shops have the ability to set their schedules as they see fit. It's primarily in the backpacker destinations that these 3-day courses are popular, and the reason they are crammed into three days is so that the shops can cycle more students through in a month and make money on volume by selling courses at a price that backpackers are willing to pay rather than delivering a course that takes a bit longer but costs more. We see this phenomenon clearly in Thailand where the backpacker-orientated shops at destinations like Koh Tao in the Gulf of Thailand typically run only 3-day courses whereas the shops on the west coast, such as at Phuket, tend to charge more for the courses and run 4-day schedules. One more day may not seem like much, but it's actually 1/3 more, and slowing the pace down by that much makes a substantial difference in the quality of instruction and in the outcomes in proficiency of the newly-certified divers the courses produce. Even excellent instructors are at a disadvantage when they are forced by their shops to rush through a certification course in three days. Mediocre instructors simply can't deliver courses of sufficiently good quality in that short a time.

Part of the reason why courses can be run cheaper on Koh Tao is the location of the dive sites, it's about the only place in Thailand where dive sites aren't a day trip away, leave 8am and back 4 or 5pm just to complete 2 dives. On Koh Tao you can do 2 morning dives and 2 afternoon dives during a boat trip, I don't think there's any other location in Thailand that can offer this.

 

[MSDT476614]

Koh Tao is a cert factory. Fact 15 years ago. Fact today. Same can be said of any public school system in the world including Universities.

- at times it is the student who learns by observing others particularly at the more senior levels
- 'PADI Standard' dives of 5m/20mins or 5m/half tank of air are not uncommon; these are options taken by divers who are lack of time/money though usually both; these options are not 'offered' by LDS on KT

I believe there is much to learn, as a first step during early days as an instructor, from running ops the KT way. The logistics are as impeccable as can be possibly designed. Students who can't make it to the morning dives get the make the afternoon dives. Those who can't make it today go tomorrow. IMHO the 3 day course is sold as is but to my knowledge of KT way back when no student was ever told that they would pay more if they could not complete it in 3 days.

As a noob instructor one would get their fair share of easy students and then some - typically under guidance first. Even when I was a noob OWSI I believed (at the age of 28) that there is no way any IDC truly preps an OWSI for real in-water teaching. Yes, problems are simulated and one's score is also predicated on the ability to 'spot and rectify' issues with mock students but real students are an entirely different species. One has to start somewhere before one becomes 'experienced.'

Watching the backpacker industry grow and teaching in a city environment its my belief that the following factors possibly lead to some issues we see today manifested as 'poor' teaching standards, even if we use a low baseline:

1. rise of the internet in the last decade + coupled with
2. resort trained divers (not all of course) who take 2 day OW cert courses comprising of 7 skills
3. leading to 'general knowledge' that diving is EASY
4. conclusion by Joe Public is that diving is supposed to be stress free, really relaxed
5. instructors and LDS are 'held' to 'standards' promulgated online by those who don't know (face it, the don't knows outnumber and outpost the do knows and the level of ignorance is shocking even in the 'maybe knows' [recent post on Utila?])
6. expectations are generated that may play havoc with class routines established by responsible instructors who try to make learning diving a good experience in terms of skills development
7. instructors then 'tone down' standards to meet the 'competitive' requirements described above so as to A) not generate a negative review of their LDS, B) not generate a negative review of themselves, C) garner more students by being known as a 'fun and easy going' instructor

Much to be said about promulgating good accurate information online. Likely to be a double edged sword though since online is a no holds barred environment?

To see what goes on in the minds of divers (noob and knob both) just scan through the accidents/incidents threads. Some sit back and learn, many are quick to 'flame' and assign blame with revelationary zeal. As with the beginning of this thread and many others. Information is never complete, we mostly tell what we want others to read/hear. Precious facts are frequently omitted, either on purpose or due to just plain old "dunno any better" to create a false sense of anger/happiness/disgust/satisfaction/whatever the aim is. And finally, what is a pertinent fact to me which could be almightily important, could be less then a footnote to others?

 

[Quero]

Part of the reason why courses can be run cheaper on Koh Tao is the location of the dive sites, it's about the only place in Thailand where dive sites aren't a day trip away, leave 8am and back 4 or 5pm just to complete 2 dives. On Koh Tao you can do 2 morning dives and 2 afternoon dives during a boat trip, I don't think there's any other location in Thailand that can offer this.

Very good point. Certainly the cost of diesel to fuel the dive boats is a major factor in pricing, and with dive sites nearby, that cost drops dramatically. However, the 3-day course could be run from parts of Thailand where the dive sites are further away. For example, if I were wanting to offer a 3-day course here from Phuket, I could do classroom + pool + one shore dive over the first two days and on the third day do a 3-tank boat trip--keeping in mind that standards prohibit more than three open water training dives in one day anyway. An op that wanted to adopt this model could cycle through more groups in a month than one adopting the 4-day schedule, and thus would be reaching for a greater volume of sales in that way. This kind of three-day course still wouldn't be as cheap for a Phuket op to run as it would for a Tao op (partly due to the previously mentioned cost of diesel), but it would cost less to run than a 4-day course, and that cost savings could potentially be passed on to the student.