Deciding the future of goliath grouper

[SubMariner]

The real solution is not in creating a Police state of constant fear and perpetual Law Enforcement. This is the tack you are on with Dumpster Diver... ....THE SOLUTION is a cultural change.
If you want this cultural change, you will certainly understand that you have only so far you can push a person ( at any given time) and remain inside their "Lattitude of Acceptance" ....if your ideas stray too far from theirs, you become the opposition and your ideas will feel very negative to them...lots of little small movements of attitude are much closer in line with a winning strategy on gaining a cultural change.

So your solution is to allow fisherman to do what they like, regardless of ecological consequences or what the law says because it's "part of their culture"? Riiiiight....

We all know how well that worked out for the Passenger Pigeon & the Eastern Elk, don't we? :doh:

 

[anytime]

Why start a poll that is so one sided. Just state your opinion because you don't want anyone elses.

 

[danvolker]

So your solution is to allow fisherman to do what they like, regardless of ecological consequences or what the law says because it's "part of their culture"? Riiiiight....

We all know how well that worked out for the Passenger Pigeon & the Eastern Elk, don't we? :doh:

You can't be serious. If fisherman can't be shown that a given practice will be very bad for them and the people they care about in the future, the law will be no more than an annoyance to them... Much like speeding tickets on I 95....the law is clear...65 mph means you can't go faster or it's illegal. Most of us realize this has nothing to do with safety - it is about revenue. While the fisherman will say the jewfish regulations are ridiculous and not based on REAL conditions under the water, you will get preachy about the law.....but if they think it is nonsense, enforcement is as ridiculous as expecting every single one of us to OBEY the 65 mph speed limit on I -95...
You can get as righteous as you like, but if Laws are not Culturally Justified, they will fail miserably in effecting the behavior of a population--unless you are looking for totalitarian police state level enforcement---which I am pretty sure you would be against....

Regards,
DanV

 

[dumpsterDiver]

....The issue of considering goliath groupers as a pest, comes from a shifting baseline. The majority of fishers complaining today have been fishing in Florida for 20 years or less. Their baseline is one of total extinction of goliath groupers (which started in the 1980s), , their first memories are zero or very few goliaths. Therefore, each new sighting is perceived as a 100 % increase. Such perception of abundance is misleading.

As a reality check, there are only two confirmed spawning aggregations of goliath grouper left in Florida. Down from at least 50 that were recognized prior to the extinction event of the late 1980s.
.

This is not an issue of shifting baselines. Apparentlly you are unable to grasp the simple concept that fisherman are PISSED! the jewfish slam tons of their fish when caught on hook and line. Their perception is that there are often very few catchable fish on many wrecks now and the few that get hooked often fall prey to jewfish. You can call it anything you want, but to ignore the sentiment of large segments of the fishing public makes no sense.

The second comment is pretty funny. We know there are more spawing sites than 2 right now. I know of several myself. Now how is it that casual observation from the past was a valid method to document 50 spawning sites, but somehow you are going to claim that there are only two confirmed sites now. How were the sites "confirmed" before? THIS sounds like a shifting baseline.

 

[danvolker]

So your solution is to allow fisherman to do what they like, regardless of ecological consequences or what the law says because it's "part of their culture"? Riiiiight....

We all know how well that worked out for the Passenger Pigeon & the Eastern Elk, don't we? :doh:

And I'm pretty sure I made it clear we need to change the "culture" , this to change the behavior of the fisherman.....part education, part proof, part getting their perspective considered as important enough for them to feel as "part" of the new solution and that the changes are what "they" want.

DanV

 

[vinegarbiscuit]

To the forum,
I'm one of the few scientists doing research on goliath grouper who is open to talk to all the stakeholders involved in the process and doing science outreach. Please, refrain from shooting the messenger and listen (or read). When I write in this forum, I speak as an independent scientist, bringing with me all my years of research,and conclusions obtained by myself and others working in the field.

The most up to date information on goliath grouper was published Open source (free download). Google Endangered Species Research (ESR) journal, go to vol 7, number 3.

To all those interested on killing and eating goliath grouper (a.k.a. jewfish) known also as Epinephelus itajara, I would remind them that goliaths have shown extremely high levels of methyl mercury. (see ESR publication above). Scientists think this is due to the goliaths spending almost the first decade of their lives in mangrove habitats, picking up all the pollution coming from our cities and towns. Methyl mercury is extremely poisonous when ingested, it causes mental retardation in children, anomalies in the unborn fetus when ingested by pregnant or planning to be pregnant mothers, erectile dysfunction in men, and it is thought a direct precursor of mental diseases such as Alzheimer's and Parkinsons. I don't understand why someone will be willing to subject himself/herself, or his/her loved ones to such danger by eating goliath grouper meat.

The issue of considering goliath groupers as a pest, comes from a shifting baseline. The majority of fishers complaining today have been fishing in Florida for 20 years or less. Their baseline is one of total extinction of goliath groupers (which started in the 1980s), , their first memories are zero or very few goliaths. Therefore, each new sighting is perceived as a 100 % increase. Such perception of abundance is misleading.

As a reality check, there are only two confirmed spawning aggregations of goliath grouper left in Florida. Down from at least 50 that were recognized prior to the extinction event of the late 1980s.

There are a few outreach posts explaining the diet of goliath grouper. I suggest you google the sentence "teamorca five common myths about goliath grouper" and you'll find answers to most of the questions already posted here, including diet of goliath grouper.

When I say that goliath grouper cannot survive any level of exploitation at this point, I take into consideration the ongoing mortality caused by catastrophic events, mainly cold fish kills (they kill large numbers of juvenile groupers), and red tides (killing mostly reproductive adults). Therefore, the recovering goliath grouper population experiences a "sandwich effect" losing both their future (their juveniles) and their precious recovery tool (their adults). There is also a persistent poaching problem going which has not been fully evaluated, while the quality of their critical habitat is constantly threatened.

Finally, continued conservation of goliath grouper is NOT a species-only approach. It just happens that goliath groupers are a key indicator species of ecosystem health. In other words, we need the big animals of the ocean to have functional ecosystems (there is a lot of research done on this respect, and if anyone is interested, i can list the key scientific papers involved).

Elsewhere in the Caribbean, the goliath groupers are pretty much gone (scientists call it ecological extinction). We have the rare opportunity of doing something very special in Florida, by giving a chance to the last remaining population of the largest grouper in the Atlantic ocean.

Please, keep posting your concerns and ideas here at Scubaboard. Let's use this public forum to educate ourselves, and to learn form each other. I'll try to answer all comments and questions to the best of my knowledge.

As divers, we're in a very unique position to observe and record the effects of natural phenomena (climate chaos and so on) and man-made changes (effects of fishing, run-off, oil spills and so on) on our oceans. Scientists and fishermen are, too. There's scope for a cooperative approach, if only we can figure out how.

Myself, I'm amazed that there's even demand for fish further up the food chain. Here in HI, we're cautioned about taking bigger fish like barracuda, eels, ulua and so on, owing to the very real risks of ciguatera poisoning. I'm not a hunter myself (heck, I'm a vegetarian), but the sustained demand for flesh from these fish - especially ulua (jacks), which are the holy grail here - is pretty amazing.

Here in HI, the critters blamed for 'stealing fishermen's fish' is the monk seal, which is teetering on the verge of extinction. I'm not joking - there are perhaps 1,000 left. Last summer, at least two monk seals - one a pregnant female - were shot and killed because they 'stole' the killers' fish. Well, yeah. Monk seals' diet is very reliant on fish. It's not optional for them. It is for us. Yet we obviously believe that everything in the sea is ours by right. It isn't. Diving has taught me that, at the very least.

Maybe a solution to preserving critters like Goliath Groupers, monk seals and so on is to change our seafood consumption patters. No, I'm not being a proselytizing, vegetarian git: I'm suggesting that we collectively take a good hard look at our demand for seafood (and certain types of seafood) and ask ourselves if it's sustainable. Plenty of species are caught sustainably, and we can support that practice with our wallets. What customers demand, enterprising fisherfolk will rush to provide, since their livelihoods depend on it. There's the other part of the equation, too: ensuring that fishing IS performed sustainably, and that's where oversight is required. It's a collective effort...we all have a part to play, as consumers, divers, fishermen/women, and scientists. I hope we can all make it work.

 

[matsat64]

Now I know by reading so many post how easy it is to get caught up in this draama around here ....I should buy a Revo CCR and be done with the drama.
Then I could sneak up on that Jewfish and Killem.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

They are typically docile and can be approached on open circuit scuba. They are very cool animals. Generally you can get within 8 feet of them, and often closer if they feel secure under a ledge or in a wreck.

 

[Megaptera]

Just quick comments on two issues.

In reef fish biology, a spawning aggregation is fully confirmed when fish concentrate in one specific location, at one specific time of the year, fish display courtship behavior and fertilized eggs are recovered from that site. For goliath grouper, there are only two sites in Florida that have all such requirements confirmed.

A spawning aggregations is suspected, when the fish concentrate (specific time and space), fish display courtship behavior, but fertilized eggs have not been recovered yet from that site. There are a few sites in the east Florida coast that are suspected goliath grouper aggregations, but full confirmation requires the collection of fertilized eggs from the water column.

For historical spawning aggregations that have been fished out and are now extinct, the location and time requirements apply, as well as the concentrated effort of the fishers (also in time and space), and the report of gravid females (full of eggs) when fished.

On the issue of anglers being pissed off because, as they say, goliath groupers take all the fish they get on a line, I cannot do much to change people's feelings or behavior. However, I'll question that if a shark where to come and take the bait/fish on the line, or a barracuda, or something else, will that be also a reason for the angler to be pissed off at such animal and a justification to kill it? We don't have many sharks left in Florida due to overfishing, so the blame seems to fall completely on the goliath grouper in that one wreck the angler is using. Perhaps the experienced angler can move a bit away from the wreck, still get the fish he wants, and diminish in that way such great inconvenience one goliath grouper is causing him.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Just quick comments on two issues.

In reef fish biology, a spawning aggregation is fully confirmed when fish concentrate in one specific location, at one specific time of the year, fish display courtship behavior and fertilized eggs are recovered from that site. For goliath grouper, there are only two sites in Florida that have all such requirements confirmed.

A spawning aggregations is suspected, when the fish concentrate (specific time and space), fish display courtship behavior, but fertilized eggs have not been recovered yet from that site. There are a few sites in the east Florida coast that are suspected goliath grouper aggregations, but full confirmation requires the collection of fertilized eggs from the water column.

For historical spawning aggregations that have been fished out and are now extinct, the location and time requirements apply, as well as the concentrated effort of the fishers (also in time and space), and the report of gravid females (full of eggs) when fished.

On the issue of anglers being pissed off because, as they say, goliath groupers take all the fish they get on a line, I cannot do much to change people's feelings or behavior. However, I'll question that if a shark where to come and take the bait/fish on the line, or a barracuda, or something else, will that be also a reason for the angler to be pissed off at such animal and a justification to kill it? We don't have many sharks left in Florida due to overfishing, so the blame seems to fall completely on the goliath grouper in that one wreck the angler is using. Perhaps the experienced angler can move a bit away from the wreck, still get the fish he wants, and diminish in that way such great inconvenience one goliath grouper is causing him.

So now spawning sites can only be identified by capturing fertilized eggs, but in the past (when 50 sites were"documented" identification of a spawning site required only the capture of gravid females?? Is that what you are saying? Certainly this is a huge change in the way you identify spawning sites, wouldn't you agree? Also, wouldn't opening up of a limited take, tag system for say 30 days in september maybe? be a quick way to document the presence of gravid females and hundreds of spawning sites (if that were a worthwhile goal)?

Also, are you saying that only 2 sites in florida have yeilded gravid females in the recent times?

Your comments are clearly intended to make the uninformed person believe that there used to be over 50 spawning sites and now there are only 2. This is crap and I think we both know it.

Also, you comment about not being able to change people's behavoir is hard to reconcile with your stated intention of protecting GG. People are and will continue to kill GG because of perception. Refusing to acknowledge this fact and stating that it is out of your control is silly. What is the use of this (biased) poll, if not to influence people? The people that need to be influenced are the fisherman who deal with these fish on a day to day basis, not some tree hugging diver from Iowa. Dan Volker spent a lot of time trying to explain this concept in considerable detail, yet it seems to have been totally beyond your grasp?

Your comment that perhaps fisherman should fish away from a wreck (where there are no fish) so that they won't have negative interaction with jewfish is laughable. What a ridiculous statement!. Try telling THAT one to fisherman... Another example of a totally unrealistic concept or idea that you propose.

Data clearly shows that the abundance of jewfish is directly correlated with other game fish and diversity in the ecosystem. Fisherman fish were the fish are. There will always be the opportunity for negative interactions. As for your comment that ONE jewfish is bothering a fisherman on a wreck.. that is ridiculous too. Gnerally there are several jewfish on EVERY wreck in south florida, often a dozen or more. Surely you know this as well. If there were just ONE jewfsih on the wreck, then the fisherman could simply kill that one jewfish and "their problem" would be solved, but it is not the case.

Since I am a spearfisiherman, I get to SEE what is happened underwater. Sharks are sometimes a problem with taking fish, but in many locations, jewfish are responsible for probably 90% or more of lost fish from freedive spearing. I can't count the number of times, I have had to try to snatch a 20 or 30 lb fish out of the mouth of a jewfish. Of course we often loose gear and fish to these guys.