Delay AOW?

[Sideband]

You just got certified. 5 more dives with an instructor learning more of the basics would do you alot of good (I get a kick out of instructors trying to sell Peak Performance Buoyancy after OW)...

I hear that a lot and maybe with PADI it is true. It is not true with NAUI though. There is only 1 dive that requires the instructor to even get in the water and that is for the deep dive. I tell all our students to get in about 25 dives before taking AOW. The shop owner doesn't like it but the AOW students that take the advice are a lot more prepaired when they get there. They can actually concentrate on learning new skills instead of being task loaded with the basics and new skills.
I also don't agree that fostering the dependence on diving with an instructor is such a great thing. Either they are certified divers, capable of diving with a budy in similar conditions to those they certified in or they should have failed the class. They should not be working on basics at AOW.
Anyway, that's my 2psi.

Joe

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't know, like jponline77, I'm considering doing an AOW, I talked to South Beach Divers today and I might head to show the shop later on. I think it will be a good way to meet people in my area, plus I want the benefits of a license that lets you dive deeper.

Also, I have this theory that any dive under 70 feet is likely to have a crowded boat whilee deeper dives probably have less people. Am I wrong?

I won't say that you are wrong ... but I think none of those are valid reasons for wanting to do a deeper dive.

Getting the "license" is worthless unless it teaches you something about how to do the deeper dive safely ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[HappyFunBoater]

AOW is about diving better, not deeper. Only one of the five AOW dives is deep.

You should get your AOW as soon as your comfortable diving. And hopefully you were comfortable diving as soon as you got your OW. If you're not comfortable, well, I wish the instructor hadn't certified you yet. It's frequently discussed on these boards that too many people get their OW without knowing how to dive or being a safe diver. I'm not saying you fit into the category. And assuming you don't, then you should get your AOW. More training is always a good thing.

However I definitely agree with your hesitancy about dry suit diving. I can't imagine putting on one of those things without training.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I would definetly get more OW dives in before taking AOW, as far as diving in a dry suit, get comfortable with your current gear, then when you take the AOW use a dry suit, the difference in 60ft and 100 ft is really that much, just your NDL. (I know people are going to disagree with that comment, but I myself dont feel any different)

OK ... I'll disagree. First there's the fact that you'll be using your air up almost 1-1/2 times faster at 100 ft than you will at 60 ft. A new diver will almost always have to ascend due to air considerations long before NDL's are a concern. Then there's the narcosis factor, which is MUCH more likely at 100 ft than at 60 ft. If you're diving in low-vis conditions, add darkness to the equation and your potential for narcosis-induced disorientation increases sharply. Then there's the fact that a "by the book" direct ascent takes almost a minute and a half longer from 100 feet than from 60 feet ... putting a new diver in a situation where they might have to make a direct ascent from 100 feet is just asking for trouble. Now think about an OOA situation where you've got two stressed-out divers sharing one tank, trying to make that direct ascent while they're hanging onto each other and you're looking at a real potential bad situation for someone not properly trained and prepared to deal with it.

Your typical AOW class doesn't even try to teach you how to deal with the increased risks associated with deeper diving. Doing so requires learning something about proper dive planning, gas management, buddy skills, and buoyancy control ... at a minimum. Proper preparation would also have you reasonably comfortable with task-loading ... because if you have to solve a problem at 100 ft, you WILL be doing it while under the influence of narcosis, and that's not the time to be trying to remember something you read in your OW manual and how to apply it to a real-life situation.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[SDAnderson]

Taking these classes don't make you a better diver. DIVING makes you a better diver. So YOU decide if you want to keep taking classes with just a few handheld dives vs going out there and diving so that you can get the hang of what diving is all about.

Interesting viewpoint, let me overstate what you said: a diver will learn just as much, just as fast, just as well, on his own without an instructor. Considering the number of specialty courses you list in your profile, I can't help but wonder wazzupwitdat?

For example, why take a peak performance buoyancy class if you still haven't got the basics on it down?

Call me daft, but one possibility might be so that you can have an instructor help you get the basics down. First, it seems to me that any student who manages to get through OW without learning the basics should, after getting a refund on their course fees, seek out another instructor for remediation. A PPB course might just be the answer. Second, I don't see a lot of evidence that divers are capable of mastering skills on their own and regularly see the problems that self-taught divers have with improperly learned skills. Taking a class has the benefit of focusing attention and providing a structured environment where time and energy can be devoted to learning skills correctly and expeditiously.

I'm not looking to pick on you all4scuba05 but hope to use you to illustrate a point. The new diver that "isn't ready" for AOW may very well be the diver that needs the class the most. For some folks, the fastest, easiest and safest way to progress to a point where they are comfortable diving independently is to immediately transition from OW to AOW. Likewise, for those folks who can't wait to get out of class and into the water, there is nothing wrong with getting some real-world experience between OW and AOW - but there are problems that come with waiting too long, too. I think new divers should dive at least a couple of days a week and take their AOW a month or so after they complete their OW. However, since I'm not the King of the World (I know, I can't believe it either) this means that many divers don't follow this progression - and that there are a great many exceptions to my rule of thumb.

In order for practice to make perfect, you have to learn what to practice and then you have to (gasp) actually practice. From time to time we all struggle to balance learning, practicing and doing, and it helps to remember that this ain't a one-size-fits-all world.

 

[HappyFunBoater]

OK ... I'll disagree. First there's the fact that you'll be using your air up almost 1-1/2 times faster at 100 ft than you will at 60 ft. A new diver will almost always have to ascend due to air considerations long before NDL's are a concern. Then there's the narcosis factor, which is MUCH more likely at 100 ft than at 60 ft. If you're diving in low-vis conditions, add darkness to the equation and your potential for narcosis-induced disorientation increases sharply. Then there's the fact that a "by the book" direct ascent takes almost a minute and a half longer from 100 feet than from 60 feet ... putting a new diver in a situation where they might have to make a direct ascent from 100 feet is just asking for trouble. Now think about an OOA situation where you've got two stressed-out divers sharing one tank, trying to make that direct ascent while they're hanging onto each other and you're looking at a real potential bad situation for someone not properly trained and prepared to deal with it.

I don't understand the logic. Of course everyone agrees that the diving you described is harder and more dangerous than, well, easier and safer diving. That's not the point.

The question is whether you will learn more in (a) an un-supervised dive, or (b) a training dive with an instructor?

Your typical AOW class doesn't even try to teach you how to deal with the increased risks associated with deeper diving. Doing so requires learning something about proper dive planning, gas management, buddy skills, and buoyancy control ... at a minimum. Proper preparation would also have you reasonably comfortable with task-loading ... because if you have to solve a problem at 100 ft, you WILL be doing it while under the influence of narcosis, and that's not the time to be trying to remember something you read in your OW manual and how to apply it to a real-life situation.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

If the AOW class doesn't teach you to deal with those increased risks, then what's the point of the class? I'm talking about an AOW class that actually achieves expected goals. Sounds like you're debating whether the typical AOW class is a waste of time, not WHEN it should be taken.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't understand the logic. Of course everyone agrees that the diving you described is harder and more dangerous than, well, easier and safer diving. That's not the point.

The question is whether you will learn more in (a) an un-supervised dive, or (b) a training dive with an instructor?

Well, first off, those aren't the only two available choices ... and even if it were, the answer would be "it depends on the circumstances".

The point of AOW shouldn't be to help you master the skills you learned in OW ... mastering skills (in diving or just about any other physically-related recreational activity) is as much about training your body to respond to muscle-memory as it is about actual knowledge. In this respect, you need to practice.

Let's make an analogy with another sport that draws on muscle-memory ... skiing. You go out and take a lesson. Your instructor shows you a few things to work on. Do you then go out and practice those skills, to the point where you're reasonably competent with them? Or do you immediately go in and sign up for another lesson on the assumption that you'll get more out of the practice if an instructor is with you? Well, the answer is that it depends on whether your intent is to learn new skills or reinforce ones you've already been taught.

Same goes with AOW. Some instructors market it as a class to learn new skills. Others market it as "five more dives under supervision". The problem with the latter is that those dives aren't going to teach you anything new if you're still struggling with the stuff you learned in OW ... that's why so many people post on this forum that they didn't learn anything in AOW.

If your OW instructor did a decent job, you can learn plenty by practicing on your own ... you're training your body to do what your head already knows it's supposed to do. And you'll do a much better job of learning it in a familiar environment ... i.e. shallow, benign conditions ... than you will by doing a deep dive or a night dive, where you've got other things going on that you need to be paying attention to.

If the AOW class doesn't teach you to deal with those increased risks, then what's the point of the class? I'm talking about an AOW class that actually achieves expected goals. Sounds like you're debating whether the typical AOW class is a waste of time, not WHEN it should be taken.

Actually, what I'm saying is that you'll get far more out of your AOW class if you wait till you're comfortable with your basic skills before taking it. There are any number of threads in this forum where that debate has already taken place. What I have gotten from reading them is that a significant number of people who said they got nothing out of their AOW felt that way because they took the class too soon ... and so their instructor had to spend his or her time working on remediating basic skills rather than teaching anything new.

But as for deeper diving, let me ask you a question ... did your AOW instructor teach you anything about gas management? If so, what? Dive planning? What? Buddy skills? What? How, exactly, did you learn to prepare for a deep dive?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[1_T_Submariner]

Hey JP,
I see you already have a lot of posts but, I'll add my $.02. I unfortunately have not had the opportunity to take the AOW course. I did by a Drysuit and Dove with a really good mentor (DM Candidate that has been diving dry for years). I my opinoin it depends on who you dive with. I dive with some really experienced divers most of the time which do not hesitate on giving friendly advice.
If you dive with others that are new you may want to take the class sooner to prevent devloping bad habits otherwise I would wait until you are more comfortable.

 

[verybaddiver]

Offering peak performance buoyancy as a specialty is bollox. These are skills you should be taught before you even pass open water. Maybe this would avoid instructors straping 30lbs to divers and waiting for them to plumit to the bottom where they do air sharing and mask removal skills, whilst killing the bottom life

 

[EvilSlumLord]

I disagree... I was CERTIFIED in a drysuit. I did my OW dives in Maine. If you are in a location where water temp is an issue, a drysuit is a must. There is a little extra instruction that you need, but it is worth it.

As far as an AOW class goes, I believe you should take that directly after OW. Would it make sense to tell a kid "congrats on getting your learner's permit, now go do some driving on your own until you are ready to take driver's ed..."? Of course not.

You just got certified. 5 more dives with an instructor learning more of the basics would do you alot of good (I get a kick out of instructors trying to sell Peak Performance Buoyancy after OW)...

I think Advanced Open Water is a poor name for the class... it makes people perceive that you are Advanced in the skills of diving. When in fact, you merely took the time to polish those basic skills that you learned in OW.

I'm no expert but this is honestly some of the worst advice I've seen on this board. I too was guided to take the AOW course right after OW and found it to be the worst call I could have made. As a newly minted OW diver you are still fooling around with your weighting, buoyancy control and air consumption. For me this added up to a lot of task loading and concern about these things, so much so that I really had no chance to enjoy the experiences of the various dives. If I had waited for 10-15 more dives, I would have gotten a LOT more out of the drift dive and night dives (and probably the others). The only specialty dive as part of AOW that I thought was really an essential for an OW diver to have was the underwater navigation dive but anyone that can read a book and use a compass could do that without taking AOW.

At the end of the day, as has been said here a couple times already, AOW is not an advanced set of skills that will make you a better diver but rather is a program of introducing you to some other diving situations (night, deep, ...). I also see it (and my LDS admitted as much) as a way to keep people diving after they get their OW cert, hopefully finding a set of dive buddies they can go with more regularly. Other than the nav part, I don't think it adds a lot more value than just going out and diving in places that are appropriate for novice divers with a good buddy.

Also, all the LDS's I've talked to wouldn't even consider letting someone take OW in a drysuit. It would be yet another thing to pay attention to in an already task-loaded situation. It gets pretty chilly in the waters here in the Puget Sound as well and getting OW cert'ed in a 7mm wetsuit works just fine. Not saying there are no shops that will do it but personally I think it isn't a great idea to mix another variable into the situation.