Azza:
I would be interested to see the site that states $600-$800 for all gasses. Could you post a link please? I need to have a chat with those guys if thats the case, might save myself a few dollars.
Greetings and good morning from Atlanta. Here is the New Zealand/Oz link on Trimix training which includes an item about costs:
http://www.diveoz.com.au/feature_articles/read_story.asp?story=2&page=2
"The cost is in excess of $600 plus gas and usually works out to around $1200 to $1400 depending on the dives. Trimix courses usually require four to eight weekends to complete with possibly some mid-week lectures."
As an "internet mathematician" I extrapolated the costs by subtracting the total costs figure of $1200 to $1400 from the class cost of $600 which yields a cost for gases of $600-800. Maybe they're lowballing to attract students who can't decide between golf lessons and Trimix training. Hard to say.
Azza:
I seriously doubt TDI was teaching Trimix in New Zealand in 1994.
You're correct. I misread the site as stating that it had been formed in 1994 in New Zealand, when as you say, it was formed in 1994 globally. I should know that. I took the 'mix course from one of the founders in 1995. I don't know when Trimix training started in New Zealand. However, the "expedition" we're referring to certainly made a conscious decision NOT to use Trimix. They don't refer to whether or not one or more of them has been trained, just that they considered the costs to be too high. I wonder what they think today?
Cost per expedition using Trimix: $5000.00+
Cost per dive NOT using Trimix: One diver's life
That's a tough choice I guess.
Azza:
Oh absolutely I do. I just get pissed off when internet divers bang on about using Helium, and they dont have a clue as to the state of supply or cost in some places in the world. The ones that especially piss me off are the guys who say any dive over 30 metres should be a mix dive. Maybe in Florida where you can get a fill for $40. Absolutely I would be right up there with them...
Internet divers . . . . That's a tough one, that "internet divers" thing. It's a useful attack when there is no other effective course of logic to use in a discussion, but it doesn't further the discussion, it's just insulting and pointlessly so since you don't know the respondents in this discussion or their experience. Are there "internet divers" on this board? I'm sure there are.
Azza:
Do an anonymous poll of mix divers on this board, and ask them if they would ever use air to dive deeper than 30 metres, even if they were in...say... Chukk Lagoon? I bet you a lot of them would do it simply because they aint gunna miss such great diving just because mix isn't available. I bet you not a lot would go to the expense of freighting it over there before the trip either...
Do the poll, but I can tell you that I have been below 30 meters on air. And yes, diving some of the deep wrecks in Chuuk . . . on air. But not to 250 fsw and not solo and obviously, not in very cold water. But let's back way up . . . what did TDI do to train me on 'mix? Well, I found myself sitting on the hood of a Volkswagen at 213' ffw on air doing math . . . in a cold-ish Florida sinkhole. So yeah, I'm guilty too. Had I died during that training it would have been perfectly appropriate for others to have criticized me, but even more so for TDI to be criticized. There have been a number of fatalities here in the states over the last decade involving 'mix and deep air training. CF's beyond belief. This is certainly part of the problem. I don't know the agencies off-hand, and they are evolving just as we are. You are correct in that we live and learn, but let's all try to learn BEFORE we engage in such stupidity.
Azza:
My whole point was that these guys were explorers. They wanted to see where this cave came from and what was down there. This is a natural instinct for most people in this country. Its how we are brought up. We seem to have this Number 8 Wire mentality where if the right tools arent available then we will work with what we have. This is what these guys did even though they were clearly not up to the task.
I don't agree. These guys were NOT explorers. There's the famous case in Florida in an article entitled "Beyond Maximum Stupid" in which a "diver" and his non-diver friend decide to "explore" a Florida cave. Between the two of them they had one cylinder, (did they even have a BCD?), one octopus regulator, two sets of fins (I think), and a roll of mono-filament fishing line. The cave in question is a very technical, low, silty system that requires side-mount to penetrate. They were found a few hundred feet in, hog-tied by their own fishing line and wedged into a crack in the cave so tight that it took several dives to get them worked loose. Were these guys "explorers?" Just because someone has a "C" card and the urge to explore does not make them explorers. There is a big difference between those guys and the Pearse folks, granted, but the point is the same. Anyone can call himself an explorer.
And let's talk about judgement: The successful and widely respected cave explorer Rob Palmer died apparently breaking his own rules:
http://www.divernet.com/profs/palmer399.htm
What is it about technical diving that lends itself so much to the "do as I say, not as I do" philosophy? I don't know. But these guys weren't explorers, they were a train wreck. They existed within a mindset that lead inevitably to a fatality. Cave diving is dangerous enough, we don't need to make it MORE dangerous than it is. This is what they did. They took an already dangerous, potentially fatal sport and made it definitely fatal. It isn't just the 'mix, it's EVERYTHING. It's their whole approach. Read the description, look at the video. If you can't find at least a dozen serious mistakes, then you're not paying attention. And it only takes one . . . .
Azza:
I have been down this road many a time in my life and its only recently I have had an inner struggle with myself to curb that instinct in my diving. Yes I too have made many silly mistakes in my diving because I wanted to go where I didnt have the tools, or the finances to get the tools, to go.
Its all to easy for the cotton wool brigade to sit back in their nice comfy chairs and slag them off. Thats really what started my rant.
I had to look this one up: "The self righteous opinionated morons will ban everything if they have their way. The
cotton wool brigade is what they call them." I actually found this on a pro-cannibis site -- go figger. His point was that if you don't smoke pot, you can't really criticize others who do. I don't know about that -- I guess I can't comment on pot. I do think that it's OK for any diver here to comment on the Pearse "expedition" and for any diver to have an opinion. Not all wisdom comes from veterans. But I also think that the more technical experience and training one has, the more possibly relevant the comment. If you're 'mix trained, then the comments are even more relevant -- one hopes.
Your experience with New Zealand diving and divers does give you a unique insight, but I'm not entirely sure there isn't a bit of nationalistic fervor in your comments. After all the leader was described as one of the best and most experienced Kiwi divers at the time. Is he still active? You recognize that their whole expedition was a CF, but you still want to give them credit for trying. Those who have been tech diving for more than a decade know that we all have done things that we know today weren't smart or safe. So I'll give them one pity-point for having engaged in this project in 1995 and in the diving backwoods of New Zealand.
But that's all. They KNEW. They UNDERSTOOD that air diving was dangerous and especially so in those conditions and they had access to 'mix, but decided NOT to use it -- because of cost. And as has been pointed out, they certainly had access to information on better diving techniques. There is no substitute for training and experience, but armchair'd or not, learning is a good thing no matter how acquired. And it isn't just the 'mix issue, it's everything from solo cave diving to deep air, to attitude. I won't even mention the equipment here. But on a related note, what is it with you Kiwis, Aussies and Brits with your head-mounted lights? I know they LOOK cool, but when you're in a cave and you need to look at your buddy to communicate something, don't you blind one another? ;-)
Finally, our disagreement is over degrees, so I'll leave it at that. I think everyone clearly sees the mistakes in this video and laments the tragic outcome. It is, in the end, a cautionary tale for all tech divers.
All the best,
JoeL
