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are you implying that you set this up for me?
seems to me it was set up to pad someone's pocket, hence the reason so many have lost interest?

Seems some feel dir is not only the right way to dive it is the right way to make money too. Hmm isn't that what padi takes all the flack about?
 
I am new to tech diving, I am wondering why I should take a dir class as opposed to the tdi tech courses I have been
Best diving,
AZDVR
 
newdiverAZ once bubbled...
are you implying that you set this up for me?
seems to me it was set up to pad someone's pocket, hence the reason so many have lost interest?

Seems some feel dir is not only the right way to dive it is the right way to make money too. Hmm isn't that what padi takes all the flack about?

Brian, I didn't mention you by name because I thought it not appropriate. But since you brought it up, yah, I was sorta counting on you. You remember this thread...http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23651

You're right. We didn't set this up for you. But we did set it up with you in mind.

But, hey, I understand and its not a big deal. Things come up. People change their minds or have scheduling conflicts or just don't have the money right now. I even understand that someone might loose interest in DIR or even get turned off by it...imagine that!

However, you are out of line to suggest that this was "set up to pad someone's pocket."

Our course cost is $360 plus instructor expenses to be split among the students. That's $330 to the instructors and $30 to Scuba Specialties for the use of their facility for the weekend. (Blake offered the use of his office and I offered the use of my home to try to cut down on costs. But we decided that it would be worth the 30 bucks to have the classroom.)

It adds up something like this:

$225 Instructor (tuition)
$30 GUE (course fee)
$75 Instructor (travel from LA and or Seattle to Phx.)
$25 (approx.) Instructor (expenses)
$24 GUE (Fundamentals book)
$30 Scuba Specialties (for use of their classroom for the weekend.)
$10 Scuba Specialties (Tank/weights... if you don't have your own)
$6 per day Lake Pleasant Marina (lake fee)
$0 AzAtty and myself (arranging all of this, airport duty, instructor shuttle, headaches and worries, and responding to insulting posts.)

So where do you see someone "padding their pocket?"

Face it...if you want a service, an education, a product...you probably are going to have to pay for it. The world doesn't owe you anything...trust me.

SA

Sarcastic remarks edited...sorry.
 
newdiverAZ once bubbled...

seems to me it was set up to pad someone's pocket, hence the reason so many have lost interest?

Seems some feel dir is not only the right way to dive it is the right way to make money too. Hmm isn't that what padi takes all the flack about? [/B]

Pad someone's pocket? What! Should the GUE instructors travel and conduct the class at their own expense? Or any other instuctor teach for free out of the goodness of their heart. Instructors, whether GUE or not, have dumped alot of money into training and of course the expense of keeping current and insured. This is not a class that pads anyone's pocket.

If you went to CA or other location to take the class you would pay the instructor fee ($250-$330 depending on the instructor) but then you would have lodging, travel, food and possibly diving fees for yourself. So you are either incurring the expenses yourself or paying the instructor's expenses....seems fair to me.

Been lurking for awhile but I had to chime in.

Karen
 
azdvr once bubbled...
I am new to tech diving, I am wondering why I should take a dir class as opposed to the tdi tech courses I have been
Best diving,
AZDVR

The DIR-Fundamentals is not a tech class, but it teaches the basic skills required for all the other GUE Tech or Cave classes.


Karen
 
If you'll pardon the biblical quotation, Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good." The counsel expressed in that verse is the lodestone guiding my educational endeavors.

The question of why you should enroll in one course over another is best answered by someone who can compare the two courses. I'm afraid I can't do that for you. I think the best way to get an idea of what the GUE course covers is to read the DIR-F reports posted by some of the people here and compare it to the training you've done with TDI. SeaJay's report, Mo2vation's first, second and third reports, DiverBuoy's report, and Nick's report all come to mind.

You've already demonstrated a reason to take the DIR-F class, even though you might not realize it. In one of your first posts on this board, you asked whether the primary regulator should go on the left post or right post, because you've heard conflicting information. You also asked where to stash stage bottles and deco bottles. From that question, I infer that the classes you have taken have not answered the question satisfactorily. I would be troubled by an introductory-level tech class like advanced nitrox and decompression procedures that does not teach basic equipment configurations. DIR-F discusses equipment in detail and also tells you WHY it should be done that way. You don't even have to take the class for information about equipment configuration. The DIR-F book spells out the equipment basics.

Perhaps another reason is the instructor. Michael Kane agreed to come out to do the class. His resume is reasonably impressive, and he is much more experienced that I am. He has seen the elephant, and that's the sort of person from whom I want to learn. I hope that answers your question.

With regard to other matters, Steve has already addressed the issue of why we arranged the class. There seemed to be enough interest to justify the effort of organizing a class instead of going to California individually. If there is not enough interest to meet minimum class size, then we'll simply cancel the class. That's why we've asked for commitments by May 15. Michael and Sonya Tittle have already set aside a date, and it would be inconsiderate to them to cancel at the last minute. We figure that six weeks is enough time for them to fill their schedules with other activities.

I'm not certain where the "pocket lining" concerns developed. I thought that we had explained the financial arrangements pretty clearly. If the comment was directed at myself and Steve, believe me, there are better opportunities to steal. I've had sole signature authority and unbridled control over clients' large bank accounts, and I've had opportunities to take MILLIONS with a single phone call if I were the least bit unscrupulous.

Steve's a doctor; I'm an attorney. It quite literally is not worth our time to concoct a scheme to nickle and dime four other people. Between the two of us, if we converted the amount of time we've spent on this project to actual billings, we could pay for the class for everyone a couple times over. So if anything, we are losing money by spending our time doing this.

That said, I was not overly thrilled that the dive shop wanted a little compensation for the use of its facilities because we wanted to keep the course fee as low as possible. But I understand the request--if they can't teach a class because we're using their classroom, they lose money. Philanthropy is all well and nice, but business is business.

I hope this addresses the concerns. It's a bit of a rant, and I hope I don't step on anyone's feelings too much.
 
Blake,

Bravo! Very well said. Thanks.


I should add...in defense of the shop...I think they felt obligated to charge at least something. $30 per student in a $400 course...well...its more a matter of principal than anything else.

I don't think anyone could honestly accuse the shop of "padding it's pocket." If it was any other course the shop would be charging the $400 and the instructor would be getting the 30 bucks. Right?

One could argue ... why not just give away the service if you're gonna just charge such a little fee out of principal. Make it up on the backend selling gear. You will look much better to the customer if you give them this service for free.

Well...I did make that argument. But, hey ...you can't blame someone for not volunteering their services. You can only applaud them when they do.

Oh...by the way...I am not affiliated with the shop. I don't teach there any longer and I don't get any special discounts (other than a standard preferred customer discount.) So, I'm not getting anything out of having this shop host the class. Hmm...well I won't have to clean up my game room.

Steve
 
newdiverAZ once bubbled...
are you implying that you set this up for me?
seems to me it was set up to pad someone's pocket, hence the reason so many have lost interest?

Seems some feel dir is not only the right way to dive it is the right way to make money too. Hmm isn't that what padi takes all the flack about?

Let me see if I can address some of the concerns, since I disagree with your premise. Let me start off by saying that I'm a partner in a Business Management firm in Beverly HIlls, and just for point of reference my billing rate to my clients is $250 per hour. Obviously I don't take home that much, but the point is that every Friday that I miss work it's 8 billable hours out of the office, multiply that by almost every Friday that I miss work to travel to different locations and you can see that my firm is loosing quit a bit of money, as am I personally, to bring DIR to locations that would otherwise have no access to the class..

The class generally begins at 7:00pm on Friday evening and ends at 11:00pm. That's 4 hours on Friday. Saturday begins at 8:00am and goes until 11:00pm, so that's 15 hours, and Sunday begins at 8:00am and goes until approx. 4:00pm, that's another 8 hours. That's 27 hours of instruction, coupled with normally a 10 hour commute. For example, last weekend in Gilboa I left my house Friday morning at 4:00am, to get a 6:00am flight. We landed at 4:00, traveled to the class and lectured to 11:00 Friday evening. I left Sunday evening at 8:00pm and didn't get home until 1:00am, and then went to work Monday morning..

In other words, in addition to 27 hours of class time, there is travel time.. If you think that 27 hours of instructor time isn't worth $200 per student then, with all due respect, I don't think this class is for you. We work very hard and put our heart and soul into every class we teach. Moreover, when we travel to a foreign city we try as hard as possible to help the local dive shops get a first hand look at DIR. Many know nothing other then what they read on the internet, and as we all know most of that isn't accurate. So if a local shop wants to tack on a fee for overhead, I see no problem with that. Like any business, shop owners are there to make money and I don't think the fee that this shop charged is out of line.

Furthermore, as a businessman for a living, I'm very cognizant of return on investment. My video camera cost $1,700, the housing was another $2,000+, the projector was another $2,500, the laptop another $1,500 notwithstanding the time, effort and expense of going through the GUE internship and ITC.. We try as hard as we can to provide value to our students and I simply don't think that a $200 per student fee, plus a variety of expenses constitutes an outrageous "padding of pockets"..

I do agree that it is a value assessement that every potential student needs to make on their own, hopefully when a student makes a commitment to take our class they receive what they expect. I'll allow other's to make their own comments in that regard, but Andrew and I have a policy that says that if you take our class and can honestly say that you haven't learned anything we will refund every penny of your money. Our goal isn't to "pad our pockets" [ trust me on that one], it's to help build and grow GUE and we wouldn't be growing if we didn't provide value to our students..

Hope that helps speak to the issue, but I'd be happy to follow up if you still have questions.

Later
 
:confused: It constantly surprises me when people make a conscious decision to be cheap about dive instruction. Hmph :rolleyes:
 

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