DIR is cheap! On what planet?

[LACounty4806]

bwerb once bubbled...
Streamlining is good for everyone especially those who just want to enjoy the casual dive. Do the math on drag and surface area and you'll see how much extra work it requires.


The assumption that was made early in the thread was that new divers should buy backplates, wings and spring straps because at some point they might want to get into tech diving a year or so down the line and would have to buy 2 sets of gear as a result. Tech diving is such a minority in the dive community that this arguement is kind of ridiculous. The average diver get's certified and does a few trips to warm waters and maybe a boat dive or 2. In that regard, the importance of streamlining and drag are about as overblown as killing a mosquito with a shotgun. Now for the 1% or so that get into tech, it's an issue down the line but to base all gear purchases on the tech assumption is wrong.

That being said, the equipment configuration of DIR is great in many regards. The halcyon products alone are some of the best made in the industry today interms of comfort,reliabilty, cost, and durability. I just don't think that a new diver who buys a ScubaPro Knighthawk and Mares Volo fins is screwed because they don't follow DIR configuration. They've purchased quality products that will be comfortable, safe, and streamlined enough to have a great time diving.

 

[ScottyK]

Mo2vation once bubbled...

The transplants pretty much suck too. The Flyers, Rangers, etc. bring them all out. You know these guys - the faded, ill-fitting blue jean sporting, bloated blue coller male pattern baldness types with threadbare jerseys, signatures from lines of years past swilling pretzels and a couple of $6 beers. I love these guys, as at least they get the game, and are usually not articulate enough to hold an arguement past "F-You" and "You wanna piece of this Cally..."


K

You just pretty much described the blue seats at Rangers Games, and 95% of the Jets crowd at the Meadowlands (the green plastic hardhats are the must have fashion accessory)

At least we don't get all the posers though. They do sound irritating

 

[OneBrightGator]

LACounty4806 once bubbled...
The assumption that was made early in the thread was that new divers should buy backplates, wings and spring straps because at some point they might want to get into tech diving a year or so down the line and would have to buy 2 sets of gear as a result. Tech diving is such a minority in the dive community that this arguement is kind of ridiculous. The average diver get's certified and does a few trips to warm waters and maybe a boat dive or 2. In that regard, the importance of streamlining and drag are about as overblown as killing a mosquito with a shotgun. Now for the 1% or so that get into tech, it's an issue down the line but to base all gear purchases on the tech assumption is wrong.

Ok... two things here... first, what does diving a backplate, wings and spring straps on your fins have ANYTHING to do with technical diving besides the fact that tech divers use them? Are you automatically a tech diver when you buy and use them? I'd say more divers who use them are rec divers, not tech divers.

Secondly, do you have ANY concept of fluid dynamics? VERY roughly calculated a steamlined diver will produce about 1 lb of friction drag where an unstreamlined diver (twice the area) will produce about 4 lbs of friction drag. Steamlining and reducing drag will have a very real effect for every diver.

Ben

 

[lragsac]

LACounty4806 once bubbled...
Streamlining is the answer for about 1% of the population diving wise. Most of the rest of us just want to enjoy the casual dive.

Hmm, I see you're from LA, so I'm surprised you said this. Surely you dive kelp forests?
Despite my "casual" diving, I'd go for streamlining any day.

 

[LACounty4806]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...


Ok... two things here... first, what does diving a backplate, wings and spring straps on your fins have ANYTHING to do with technical diving besides the fact that tech divers use them? Are you automatically a tech diver when you buy and use them? I'd say more divers who use them are rec divers, not tech divers.

Secondly, do you have ANY concept of fluid dynamics? VERY roughly calculated a steamlined diver will produce about 1 lb of friction drag where an unstreamlined diver (twice the area) will produce about 4 lbs of friction drag. Steamlining and reducing drag will have a very real effect for every diver.

Ben

Ben,

Before you blow a gasket, I was writing based on an early string in the thread where Wendy said:

"but you have to look at the big picture, its probably cheaper in the long run. Think of a person doing ow diving, buys a jacket style BC, some weird fins, etc and then 2 years down the road they want to get into tech diving, then they still have the other dive gear, but now want to buy a bp/harness/wing, jet fins, etc. SO basiclaly this person has had to buy 2 sets of gear, when if they had gotten the bp/wing etc to begin with it would have been cheaper in the long run. Also a BC will eventually wear out. But with a bp and harness, if it starts to wear out you spend $12 on new webbing, you can't really do that with the BC, you just gotta buy a new one. Anyway, that's how I see it."

Streamlining is just not a huge factor for your average recreational diver. I think it's a good idea to practice minimalism when getting in the water but it's hardly a priority worthy of your outrage, ie caps. As a PADI OWSI, I'd be curious if you could reference me to the section in the PADI OW or AOW training material where streamlining and drag coefficients are taught. I'd be curious to see what importance is placed on these things by the most prolific training agency.

Thanks.

 

[MHK]

LACounty4806 once bubbled...

bwerb once bubbled...
Streamlining is good for everyone especially those who just want to enjoy the casual dive. Do the math on drag and surface area and you'll see how much extra work it requires.


The assumption that was made early in the thread was that new divers should buy backplates, wings and spring straps because at some point they might want to get into tech diving a year or so down the line and would have to buy 2 sets of gear as a result. Tech diving is such a minority in the dive community that this arguement is kind of ridiculous. The average diver get's certified and does a few trips to warm waters and maybe a boat dive or 2. In that regard, the importance of streamlining and drag are about as overblown as killing a mosquito with a shotgun. Now for the 1% or so that get into tech, it's an issue down the line but to base all gear purchases on the tech assumption is wrong.

That being said, the equipment configuration of DIR is great in many regards. The halcyon products alone are some of the best made in the industry today interms of comfort,reliabilty, cost, and durability. I just don't think that a new diver who buys a ScubaPro Knighthawk and Mares Volo fins is screwed because they don't follow DIR configuration. They've purchased quality products that will be comfortable, safe, and streamlined enough to have a great time diving.

I think you are misunderstanding the DIR position as it relates to streamlining. I don't want to get into a game of semantics over the definition of "screwed because they don't follow DIR configuration".. Many of us, and we fully recognize that not all will agree with us, but nonetheless many of us like the benefits associated with a standardized and streamlined gear configuration. We also believe that the benefits of a BP & wing set up extend well beyond any potential for later extension into the tech diving world. Whether one later goes into tech/cave diving is beyond the scope. Certainly if one does move on then the BP & wings is more beneficial, but even to those that stay within the recreational diving world will derive benefits and easier balance, trim and bouyancy while using a BP & wing..

Hope that helps..

Later

 

[LACounty4806]

lragsac once bubbled...


Hmm, I see you're from LA, so I'm surprised you said this. Surely you dive kelp forests?
Despite my "casual" diving, I'd go for streamlining any day.

Glad you enjoy gear configuration. That's good to hear. Who was you DIR-F instructor? He obviously made an impact.

As for me, I am from LA and do dive kelp regularly. So do thousands of other "unstreamlined" divers. No big deal. Before you went streamlined, did you have lots of trouble getting continiuosly tangled in the kelp? I don't.

Again I'll say, you don't need a streamlined configuration to enjoy the diving safely. You just need to be comfortable and that's going to be measured differently for everybody.

 

[Mo2vation]

The wind up:

LACounty4806 once bubbled...
Ben,

Before you blow a gasket...

The pitch...

LACounty4806 once bubbled...
I'd be curious to see what importance is placed on these things by the most prolific training agency.

Looks like he let that one hang over the center of the plate, Jim. The swing... Its a long fly ball to deep center field. Way back, way back....

k

 

[OneBrightGator]

Ok, that was just one of the many reasons a BP/wings could be a better choice, certainly not one of the main ones, people too quickly assume just because you dive a BP/wing you must be a tech diver.

No, no, no, no, streamlining is a huge factor in your average diver, I showed you how it affects the effort you have to overcome and I don't see how one physics principle applies to tech divers and not rec divers. And any misinformation is certainly worth of capitalization to point it out.

Sure...
Open Water Diver Manual, page 78 (simplified)
PADI Instructor Manual, Open Water Diver Course, page 3-17
PADI Instructor Manual, Peak Perf. Buoyancy Spec., Section E.

If you don't have any of those materials, just let me know.

So Mo... did I make it outta the park?

Ben

 

[LACounty4806]

MHK once bubbled...


I think you are misunderstanding the DIR position as it relates to streamlining. I don't want to get into a game of semantics over the definition of "screwed because they don't follow DIR configuration".. Many of us, and we fully recognize that not all will agree with us, but nonetheless many of us like the benefits associated with a standardized and streamlined gear configuration. We also believe that the benefits of a BP & wing set up extend well beyond any potential for later extension into the tech diving world. Whether one later goes into tech/cave diving is beyond the scope. Certainly if one does move on then the BP & wings is more beneficial, but even to those that stay within the recreational diving world will derive benefits and easier balance, trim and bouyancy while using a BP & wing..

Hope that helps..

Later

Mike,

Thanks for chiming in. I probably did misapply the concept of streamlining. I probably would have been better off using the term minimalism instead. And I do understand quite a bit about the concept of DIR gear configuration. I think it's a training method that has proved successful for many divers and probably will continue to do so. That being said, I'll just say that I think there are a lot of divers doing great without this configuration and probably will continue to do so. My entry into this thread was because of a quote that suggested buying equipment based upon the idea in a year or two a person might get into tech. I just thought that was a dumb reason to base your first gear purchase on. Better to get something because it's comfortable, fit's well, and does the job it's supposed to. That could be a backplate and wings, a jacket, or a horsecollar. Okay, maybe not a horsecollar. I guess I also didin't like the quote because it also sounded of selling specific gear to just sell more training.

Thanks for the clarification.