DIR is cheap! On what planet?

[LACounty4806]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...
Ok, that was just one of the many reasons a BP/wings could be a better choice, certainly not one of the main ones, people too quickly assume just because you dive a BP/wing you must be a tech diver.

No, no, no, no, streamlining is a huge factor in your average diver, I showed you how it affects the effort you have to overcome and I don't see how one physics principle applies to tech divers and not rec divers. And any misinformation is certainly worth of capitalization to point it out.

Sure...
Open Water Diver Manual, page 78 (simplified)
PADI Instructor Manual, Open Water Diver Course, page 3-17
PADI Instructor Manual, Peak Perf. Buoyancy Spec., Section E.

If you don't have any of those materials, just let me know.

So Mo... did I make it outta the park?

Ben

Thanks for the offer Ben but I have them.

First of all, I never said they didn't apply to both. I just said it wasn't an important issue. I still maintain it isn't. Take a look at the materials you quoted me and tell me PADi doesn't say the same thing. I hardly think 70 words in a 260 page manual or 1 slide on a powerpoint presentation is a an overwhelming endorsement that streamling is a huge factor. Valve types get more play than that (page 42-43).Probably not a homerun.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So I'm hanging there in the water this morning, watching my dive buddy doing a perfect hover in 6 feet of water ... about a foot off the bottom, focusing his camera on a moonsnail. There was a bit of current and some residual surge from this morning's storm, but he managed to hold his position with just an occasional flick of his fin tips. Nothing else moved on his body while he patiently lined up and took the shot he wanted.

Looking at him in his Seaquest Malibu, silly plastic fins, and that ridiculous snorkel that he probably picked up for $5 at Costco, I just couldn't wait to get out of the water and tell him how much better he'd be able to do it in a backplate ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MHK]

LACounty4806 once bubbled...



Mike,

Thanks for chiming in. I probably did misapply the concept of streamlining. I probably would have been better off using the term minimalism instead. And I do understand quite a bit about the concept of DIR gear configuration. I think it's a training method that has proved successful for many divers and probably will continue to do so. That being said, I'll just say that I think there are a lot of divers doing great without this configuration and probably will continue to do so. My entry into this thread was because of a quote that suggested buying equipment based upon the idea in a year or two a person might get into tech. I just thought that was a dumb reason to base your first gear purchase on. Better to get something because it's comfortable, fit's well, and does the job it's supposed to. That could be a backplate and wings, a jacket, or a horsecollar. Okay, maybe not a horsecollar. I guess I also didin't like the quote because it also sounded of selling specific gear to just sell more training.

Thanks for the clarification.

No worries, I just thought that since you were new to this list that I would point out that some are more concerned with getting into a game of semantics simply to play the "I gotcha game".. I'm not suggesting that you were involved in that but for some they are more intrested in the game rather then understanding what we stand for.

To that end, I want to be clear there are many divers out there that dive in odd, un-streamlined configurations and from my perspective I have no problem with whatever anyone else does. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything, I see my purpose in these type of threads to answer questions as to how we do it, why we do it and I fully recognize that not everyone will agree and/or adopt our ideology. Some confuse our prescense on these lists as an attempt to change their minds or convince them to change their configuration, then once that premise is implied they get into the game of "we are trying to tell them what to do" or " if you don't do it DIR way you'll die". Neither of those concepts are true but some on the other side of the debate want to frame the debate with the starting point of we are trying to tell you guys how to dive. I guess I'm just tired of seeing our position distorted so I wanted to set the record straight in that we are here to answer questions about how or what we do, I'm not about wasting my time trying to convince anyone to change anything that they are doing, I would just make a personal choice to not dive with someone that doesn't share my ideology as I would suspect those that don't share my view may not wish to dive with me. Simply put, any more then that is posturing or trolling by those that just want to continue the debate rather then just accept that we don't care how they dive so why should they care how we dive?? If they want to know how we dive we'll answer the questions, but the days of arguing with everyone are long behind us and only a few holdouts remain and I won't engage them..

Thanks

 

[OneBrightGator]

LACounty4806 once bubbled...


Thanks for the offer Ben but I have them.

First of all, I never said they didn't apply to both. I just said it wasn't an important issue. I still maintain it isn't. Take a look at the materials you quoted me and tell me PADi doesn't say the same thing. I hardly think 70 words in a 260 page manual or 1 slide on a powerpoint presentation is a an overwhelming endorsement that streamling is a huge factor. Valve types get more play than that (page 42-43).Probably not a homerun.

Why don't you ask any of the tech divers on this board if streamlining is important? If being streamlined makes getting into the Ear easier, or how much faster thier scooters are if they're streamlined, the same thing works in a rec setting just as well.

Regardless of the space decided to it I would think an Instructor would agree that streamlining = good. I gave you physical proof of the value of streamling and it seems so obvious I really don't know what else to say about it.

Ben

 

[LACounty4806]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...


Why don't you ask any of the tech divers on this board if streamlining is important? If being streamlined makes getting into the Ear easier, or how much faster thier scooters are if they're streamlined, the same thing works in a rec setting just as well.

Regardless of the space decided to it I would think an Instructor would agree that streamlining = good. I gave you physical proof of the value of streamling and it seems so obvious I really don't know what else to say about it.

Ben

Ben,

I never said streamlining wasn't good. And this wasn't about what tech divers do either. It was about why you purchase gear. I just don't think streamlining or what you may do in 2 years are the singularly most important issues when buying gear. I would think an instructor would agree with that.

This is what MHK was talking about in his warning about the board.

Perhaps a timeout would be good here.

 

[cruzyn56]

These posts provide an interesting read.

Being somewhat new to diving I had stumbled across the DIR philosophy after I had bought most of my equipment. It does seem to make sense.

For new divers it is difficult to get the right guidance as to what to buy. Everyone wants to sell you a package, everything you read says try equipment first, but most dive shops have very similar equipment. So how do you know what you will like?

Profits and marketing are what drives it all. You won't get an LDS to suggest the DIR setup. They won't see you again. After all the certification class was with their bc's.

So I will take a long term approach and as my equipment wears out or breaks replace it with a more DIR setup.

I wouldn't buy an all in one stereo system, had I known about the backplate and wings, I wouldn't have bought a jacket style bc either.

 

[OneBrightGator]

Ah, I see, so streamlining isn't important, but it is good... I see...

And you're right, streamlining and future plans are not the singularly most important issues, however, YOU were the one who made future plans such an issue by repeating it and you were also the one who said streamlining is not important, which is a lie, period.

I'm sure MHK is worried about all the misinformation spread on this board, not just that which deals with DIR.

Ben

 

[LACounty4806]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...
Ah, I see, so streamlining isn't important, but it is good... I see...

And you're right, streamlining and future plans are not the singularly most important issues, however, YOU were the one who made future plans such an issue by repeating it and you were also the one who said streamlining is not important, which is a lie, period.

I'm sure MHK is worried about all the misinformation spread on this board, not just that which deals with DIR.

Ben

Nice conclusion Ben. The "liar, liar" counter arguement. You are a BRIGHT GATOR. No misinformation has been spread here. Just differences of opinion. You really don't have much tolerance for that though. I just want divers to be comfortable in the water with their gear and skills. I don't care what they wear as long as they're safe and happy. I'd rather spend time working in the water rather than worrying about physics as they relate to drag of a BC or the kicking efficiency of fins. Most divers don't care about it when diving. I can't say I've ever heard a diver say "Man, the total surface area of my gear configuration is slowing me down. " I have heard people say "I don't like how this BC fits me or "Man, this split fins make my diving so much easier." Streamlining isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. If you want to do it, great. I think there is room for it. If you don't, it's no big deal. I think we've really wasted enough time on this so the last word is yours. We've already written more about this subject than any of the major trainging agencies would care to.

 

[Mo2vation]

My So Cal compadre - you are really trying here, but some folks insist on throwing the same pitch over and over and over and over... I would have left the box. You're just watching them go by.

You're clearly an articulate, smart and very well spoken person - trying and trying to project clarity to keep your thoughts and intents from being twisted into the agenda dujour.

Whatever. You're keeping the guns down and not getting drawn in. This has been quite a show, as you clearly have game to spare.

Keep rockin. Welcome to the board.

K

 

[OneBrightGator]

LACounty4806 once bubbled...
Nice conclusion Ben. The "liar, liar" counter arguement. You are a BRIGHT GATOR. No misinformation has been spread here. Just differences of opinion. You really don't have much tolerance for that though. I just want divers to be comfortable in the water with their gear and skills. I don't care what they wear as long as they're safe and happy. I'd rather spend time working in the water rather than worrying about physics as they relate to drag of a BC or the kicking efficiency of fins. Most divers don't care about it when diving. I can't say I've ever heard a diver say "Man, the total surface area of my gear configuration is slowing me down. " I have heard people say "I don't like how this BC fits me or "Man, this split fins make my diving so much easier." Streamlining isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. If you want to do it, great. I think there is room for it. If you don't, it's no big deal. I think we've really wasted enough time on this so the last word is yours. We've already written more about this subject than any of the major trainging agencies would care to.

I provided physical proof that streamlining is important and that minor changes in it result in much greater effects, if you don't feel that exponentially reducing a diver's workload and therefore his/her stress level then I suppose you're welcome to keep that opinion.

Maybe you haven't, because I doubt most new divers analyze things like being streamlined in an empirical way. They may not know why something works better, it's thier instructor's job to understand it and show them why.

I will never understand how someone who's been diving cannot appreciate the value of being streamlined. Compare standing on the side of the road and being passed by a semi-truck and a van, the semi-truck has much more of an affect and is expending extra energy to do so, the same principle is in effect.

Ben