tinkertrain
Guest
I personaly prefer the " NESTEA PLUNGE " entry method myself
DIR Question
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John_B
Grasshopper
I'm not saying this wounded vet story didn't happen (and I'm not saying it did, either). But this flies in the face of every experience I've ever had with any DIR diver. Not in NorCal and not in South Fla.
I don't know if there is one arsewhole out there spouting off like that, that everyone on the internet seems to meet up with? Or if people are stumbling across some really old GI3 posts from the old lists and are using that to reinvent a modern strawman in support of their argument? Or if it is something else entirely like friends making jokes with each other that get misinterpreted by someone else eavesdropping on a private conversation?
Seriously, does anyone really even use the word str0ke anymore, except kidding around with their friends?
Maybe the next time someone on SB witnesses something like this they could get names, dates and times? Or at least get their cell phone camera out and get some Patterson-Gimlin style footage?
I don't know if there is one arsewhole out there spouting off like that, that everyone on the internet seems to meet up with? Or if people are stumbling across some really old GI3 posts from the old lists and are using that to reinvent a modern strawman in support of their argument? Or if it is something else entirely like friends making jokes with each other that get misinterpreted by someone else eavesdropping on a private conversation?
Seriously, does anyone really even use the word str0ke anymore, except kidding around with their friends?
Maybe the next time someone on SB witnesses something like this they could get names, dates and times? Or at least get their cell phone camera out and get some Patterson-Gimlin style footage?
Sas
Contributor
I am pretty sure there are idiots who are DIR and idiots who are non-DIR, so both the people here posting stories of mean DIR divers that they have met and the people posting that every DIR diver they have met have been nice, are only basing it on their own experience and both are unlikely to be accurate.
Cyclops_Diver
Guest
What makes me laugh about DIR is that it is completely a mindset issue. Some people have it, some don't. Same things apply toward the military (as someone alluded to previously). Standardized gear, planning, contingency planning, backups for the backup so to speak. After my military history, all that makes perfect sense to me. Back in the day I knew where each and every pertinent piece of gear my spotter or teammate carried was. Could find it on their person in the dark, underwater, upside down or right side up. Your buddies were there to back you up, and it reaches a point where you intuitively know what they are doing all the time. Reactions are learned, very few behavioral surprises in a crisis situation.
But at the basic level, some people are just not cut out for that sort of mindset, and some are. Unfortunatly some people are more vocal about one or the other. It's on both sides of the fence. Same applies for military. I loved it, my neighbor hates it. I don't jump her case for disliking it, but that doesn't stop her from berating me for being a "mindless robot."
That silly free speech and individuality thing...
Semper.
But at the basic level, some people are just not cut out for that sort of mindset, and some are. Unfortunatly some people are more vocal about one or the other. It's on both sides of the fence. Same applies for military. I loved it, my neighbor hates it. I don't jump her case for disliking it, but that doesn't stop her from berating me for being a "mindless robot."
That silly free speech and individuality thing...
Semper.
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Hi Everyone,
I totally agree that the group who we met up were NOT your mainstream DIR community, and no one in our group assumed that they were. However, in the non DIR community, unfortunately the word Stroke is very much associated with the DIR community, and it is generally believed to be a slur against those who are not DIR. Now, I know this is not true, but there are many who do not. This is the problem. There are way to many good people in DIR to have a few people ruin it for everyone, and it is too good of a system for people not to try it out based on this miscommunication. (I also know this happens in ALL groups, NOT just DIR) Just as wrong as it is for anyone who thinks the few people who are still out there represent the greater community. That is why I was suggesting the DIR community distance themselves away from "Stroke", so that the association that goes with it will also be distanced. When I was at PADI college, we were told to NEVER put down another agency or diving style, as doing so will lower our professional standards. DIR's Professional Standards are no lower than mine, and hopefully they are even higher. Name calling has no place in Professionalism, thus (and this is my opinion only) anything DIR can do to distance themselves from the few ruining it for the many would be appreciated. Hence my suggestion that those who have to resort to name calling are not DIR.
Thanks everyone,
George
I totally agree that the group who we met up were NOT your mainstream DIR community, and no one in our group assumed that they were. However, in the non DIR community, unfortunately the word Stroke is very much associated with the DIR community, and it is generally believed to be a slur against those who are not DIR. Now, I know this is not true, but there are many who do not. This is the problem. There are way to many good people in DIR to have a few people ruin it for everyone, and it is too good of a system for people not to try it out based on this miscommunication. (I also know this happens in ALL groups, NOT just DIR) Just as wrong as it is for anyone who thinks the few people who are still out there represent the greater community. That is why I was suggesting the DIR community distance themselves away from "Stroke", so that the association that goes with it will also be distanced. When I was at PADI college, we were told to NEVER put down another agency or diving style, as doing so will lower our professional standards. DIR's Professional Standards are no lower than mine, and hopefully they are even higher. Name calling has no place in Professionalism, thus (and this is my opinion only) anything DIR can do to distance themselves from the few ruining it for the many would be appreciated. Hence my suggestion that those who have to resort to name calling are not DIR.
Thanks everyone,
George
I am a bit dated in the sense that I was diving pre-DIR and pre GUE (but not pre-Hogarthian).
Given that history, I tend to differentiate between DIR and GUE. DIR was something anyone could learn and the process was more one of mentorship with the tehchiques passing from dive rto diver with much less formality. It had strong hog roots but it did not stifle the idea of experimentation and optimization to find ever better ways to do something, whether it was a new technique, a modification to a configuration for a specific circumstance or a new way to make a piece of gear.
GUE on the other hand is the agency version of DIR and tends to come off as being much more formal and much more limited in terms of its focus. That part of the map says "There (can) be zealots here."
What does it all mean? I dove plates and wings long before they were cool. I was swimming 3 or 4 inches off a clay silt bottom leaving no trace long before fundies was even conceived. When I used to do long deep dives in very cold water and/or ice dive, I used a pivot ring harness with (gasp!) a quick release as it made it much easier to get out of your gear when very cold with very cold and stiff hands. And it made it easier for a buddy to help another diver out of a hole in the ice without taking a z-knife to a one piece harness. It was in short optimum for the dive.
Similarly, when I dive in a cave I have no lift bag, when I dive open water, I have one bungeed to the bottom of the plate and when I dove offshore, I have a orange and a yellow one bungeed in a very stroketastic OMS carrier because it works and leaves the pockets on the suit free for reels, spools, signal mirror, etc. Again I try to optimize for the situation.
I do dive with a right hip d-ring (3 pieces of overlapping webbing and a piece of velcro let you put the light over the webbing without having to thread it and let you carry the can light just like you would without a right hip d-ring.) I tend to carry a reel on the right D-ring. It is not strictly DIR but it is easier to access than in a pocket and it does not get hung up with a stage and SPG on the left. Offshore I am far more likely to tuck the long hose under the webbing than under the can light, since with a giant stride off shore entry and surge, it stays put better and horror stories aside, it is not hard to deploy, they get half of it immediately and the rest pulls free about a half second longer than if it were under the can light.
In short I tend to be DIR, but in the sense that I follow the basic hog tenents of streamlining and ensuring every thing brings something to the dive and then think through what I do and then I do it with the intent of optimizing for the wide variety of conditions I dive, with as few differences as possible to ensure everything is as streamlined as possible and comes to hand when I need it.
So I'd consider myself DIR, but a significant percentage of GUE trained divers would differ with that opinion since I break some of the rules that GUE promotes. I do dive solo frequently and I have a ong history of zero viz commercial dives where solos is both easier and safer than getting entangles with a buddy. Again, it depends on the circumstances.
Is the difference between DIR and DIR/GUE a problem? Not really. If I am in a cave, I configure like the more dyed in the wool GUE buddies and the reel is usually not an issue as unless I am leading it gets left behind and the safety spools and gap reel are in a pocket. If I am leading, it gets used soon anyway.
So I don't think "DIR" by the original definition is restrictive and the degree to which it is a "problem" with other GUEish DIR divers depends on whether you dive with that small minority of zealots that DIR/GUE people don't even like, who tend to substitute strict adherence to dogma for brains and/or experience and who will in any event refuse to dive with anyone who never took fundies as every one of them knows and will tell you that no one can have good buoyancy without passing fundies.
Oh...and the superman avtar thing... it makes sense in a high flow system or a restriction as your hands end up in that vicinity anyway, and in general I think it does tend to get people to arch their backs, stay level and avoid getting roto tillery but in open water and most wrecks, I just can't bring myself to do it as it looks to Mike Nelson'esque.
I also agree that waterskills are under respected. Back in the day, you were often advised to limit your max depth on scuba to twice your freediving depth. After not freediving for years, I can still freedive to 60 feet with no problem, but that is sadly probably a rarity in both the rec and tech comunities where I am not sure many divers could even make it to 20 ft with any geat degree of comfort.
Given that history, I tend to differentiate between DIR and GUE. DIR was something anyone could learn and the process was more one of mentorship with the tehchiques passing from dive rto diver with much less formality. It had strong hog roots but it did not stifle the idea of experimentation and optimization to find ever better ways to do something, whether it was a new technique, a modification to a configuration for a specific circumstance or a new way to make a piece of gear.
GUE on the other hand is the agency version of DIR and tends to come off as being much more formal and much more limited in terms of its focus. That part of the map says "There (can) be zealots here."
What does it all mean? I dove plates and wings long before they were cool. I was swimming 3 or 4 inches off a clay silt bottom leaving no trace long before fundies was even conceived. When I used to do long deep dives in very cold water and/or ice dive, I used a pivot ring harness with (gasp!) a quick release as it made it much easier to get out of your gear when very cold with very cold and stiff hands. And it made it easier for a buddy to help another diver out of a hole in the ice without taking a z-knife to a one piece harness. It was in short optimum for the dive.
Similarly, when I dive in a cave I have no lift bag, when I dive open water, I have one bungeed to the bottom of the plate and when I dove offshore, I have a orange and a yellow one bungeed in a very stroketastic OMS carrier because it works and leaves the pockets on the suit free for reels, spools, signal mirror, etc. Again I try to optimize for the situation.
I do dive with a right hip d-ring (3 pieces of overlapping webbing and a piece of velcro let you put the light over the webbing without having to thread it and let you carry the can light just like you would without a right hip d-ring.) I tend to carry a reel on the right D-ring. It is not strictly DIR but it is easier to access than in a pocket and it does not get hung up with a stage and SPG on the left. Offshore I am far more likely to tuck the long hose under the webbing than under the can light, since with a giant stride off shore entry and surge, it stays put better and horror stories aside, it is not hard to deploy, they get half of it immediately and the rest pulls free about a half second longer than if it were under the can light.
In short I tend to be DIR, but in the sense that I follow the basic hog tenents of streamlining and ensuring every thing brings something to the dive and then think through what I do and then I do it with the intent of optimizing for the wide variety of conditions I dive, with as few differences as possible to ensure everything is as streamlined as possible and comes to hand when I need it.
So I'd consider myself DIR, but a significant percentage of GUE trained divers would differ with that opinion since I break some of the rules that GUE promotes. I do dive solo frequently and I have a ong history of zero viz commercial dives where solos is both easier and safer than getting entangles with a buddy. Again, it depends on the circumstances.
Is the difference between DIR and DIR/GUE a problem? Not really. If I am in a cave, I configure like the more dyed in the wool GUE buddies and the reel is usually not an issue as unless I am leading it gets left behind and the safety spools and gap reel are in a pocket. If I am leading, it gets used soon anyway.
So I don't think "DIR" by the original definition is restrictive and the degree to which it is a "problem" with other GUEish DIR divers depends on whether you dive with that small minority of zealots that DIR/GUE people don't even like, who tend to substitute strict adherence to dogma for brains and/or experience and who will in any event refuse to dive with anyone who never took fundies as every one of them knows and will tell you that no one can have good buoyancy without passing fundies.
Oh...and the superman avtar thing... it makes sense in a high flow system or a restriction as your hands end up in that vicinity anyway, and in general I think it does tend to get people to arch their backs, stay level and avoid getting roto tillery but in open water and most wrecks, I just can't bring myself to do it as it looks to Mike Nelson'esque.
I also agree that waterskills are under respected. Back in the day, you were often advised to limit your max depth on scuba to twice your freediving depth. After not freediving for years, I can still freedive to 60 feet with no problem, but that is sadly probably a rarity in both the rec and tech comunities where I am not sure many divers could even make it to 20 ft with any geat degree of comfort.
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