cold kiwi
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........im confused...................................i drive a MAZDA
Divemaster Training
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cold kiwi
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1978 323 WAGON FULLY CONVERTED TO A 13B BRIDGEPORT
ahhhhh thats better =-)
ahhhhh thats better =-)
Thanks for some of your responses. As a newbe on ScubaBoard, I had no idea that my comments would produce such a tempest in a teacup. My only point was that I believe that the instructor is more important than the certifying agency. Most of your comments have only reniforced that belief.
I also agree with most of you, that it would be better to apprentice for a year than to blow through a two week course. I also do not believe that my tec training has qualified me in any way as a better prospective DM candidate apart from the improvement in personal diving skills and self confidence that came with it.
I am going to go the PADI route for the same reason I use Microsoft software. If I decide that their program is deficient in any material way, I will consider it my personal responsibility to supplement (not change) it to whatever extent I believe might be helpful. The reasons for the two week course are (a) that I have another career I am pursuing and (b) I have another hobby (sailboat racing) that precludes me from any kind of constant apprenticeship activities.
The main thing that I have taken away from this thread other than all of the personal recriminations and automotive advice, is that I should pack in as much DM work as possible after I get the card before I even think about moving on into an Instructor training program with any agency.
Again, thanks for all of the responses that were not of the personal agenda variety. As for the rest of you, Get A Life!
I also agree with most of you, that it would be better to apprentice for a year than to blow through a two week course. I also do not believe that my tec training has qualified me in any way as a better prospective DM candidate apart from the improvement in personal diving skills and self confidence that came with it.
I am going to go the PADI route for the same reason I use Microsoft software. If I decide that their program is deficient in any material way, I will consider it my personal responsibility to supplement (not change) it to whatever extent I believe might be helpful. The reasons for the two week course are (a) that I have another career I am pursuing and (b) I have another hobby (sailboat racing) that precludes me from any kind of constant apprenticeship activities.
The main thing that I have taken away from this thread other than all of the personal recriminations and automotive advice, is that I should pack in as much DM work as possible after I get the card before I even think about moving on into an Instructor training program with any agency.
Again, thanks for all of the responses that were not of the personal agenda variety. As for the rest of you, Get A Life!
Here I am again in the middle of the night when I should be doing something else throwing my two cents and energy into what is likely a lost cause.
IMO, walter is right in that the minimum agency requirements are all that can be guaranteed. Yes a good instructor can do a good job in spite of the agency but the agency should help.
I tend to place more emphisis on the instructor while walter talks a little more about the agency. I think our styles of teaching are way different but our goals much the same. Therefore I would love the chance to watch him teach. My guess is there is stuff there I could use and haven't thought of yet. What I'm getting at is walter has been doing this a while and you folks who are considering going pro should give some good hard thought to what he says. I'm not telling you all to go YMCA because Walter likes them but I think it's worth the time to understand why he likes them.
It worries me half to death when I hear about these instructor cert mills refered to as "the harvord of dive schools" They might get it done fast and it might be efficient but I have yet to see a DM or instructor they turned out that I would turn loose on one of my classes. It is possible to buy a card and then teach yourself how to do it but it isn't easy.
I had an instructor work for me for part of a night from one of the big schools in Florida. He wasn't bad in the water (he did a lot of diving while down there). However he couldn't briefe a pool skill to save his life. He had no clue as to what the point of the skill was. He had no idea what problems to expect or warn students of. He had no clue how to keep control of the class and manage the divemasters under water.
Here is the kicker...When I talked to him about trying it for a second night he said he would but he wanted me to do the breifings because he was uncomfortable speaking in front of a group! BTW, he was a Master Scuba Diver Trainer. That means he had certified at least 25 students and could teach 5 specialties. When I asked how he managed that without speaking to a group, he told me that they were classes of one or he was working with some one else. You see, the instructor who does the last OW dive of the class gets credit for the certification. The guy had all the cards but was totally incompetant. These places have for sure learned how to use the standards to make money.
Jason, What is goal? Have you thought about what kind of class you want to work with? contact me off line if you feel like talking dive master stuff.
IMO, walter is right in that the minimum agency requirements are all that can be guaranteed. Yes a good instructor can do a good job in spite of the agency but the agency should help.
I tend to place more emphisis on the instructor while walter talks a little more about the agency. I think our styles of teaching are way different but our goals much the same. Therefore I would love the chance to watch him teach. My guess is there is stuff there I could use and haven't thought of yet. What I'm getting at is walter has been doing this a while and you folks who are considering going pro should give some good hard thought to what he says. I'm not telling you all to go YMCA because Walter likes them but I think it's worth the time to understand why he likes them.
It worries me half to death when I hear about these instructor cert mills refered to as "the harvord of dive schools" They might get it done fast and it might be efficient but I have yet to see a DM or instructor they turned out that I would turn loose on one of my classes. It is possible to buy a card and then teach yourself how to do it but it isn't easy.
I had an instructor work for me for part of a night from one of the big schools in Florida. He wasn't bad in the water (he did a lot of diving while down there). However he couldn't briefe a pool skill to save his life. He had no clue as to what the point of the skill was. He had no idea what problems to expect or warn students of. He had no clue how to keep control of the class and manage the divemasters under water.
Here is the kicker...When I talked to him about trying it for a second night he said he would but he wanted me to do the breifings because he was uncomfortable speaking in front of a group! BTW, he was a Master Scuba Diver Trainer. That means he had certified at least 25 students and could teach 5 specialties. When I asked how he managed that without speaking to a group, he told me that they were classes of one or he was working with some one else. You see, the instructor who does the last OW dive of the class gets credit for the certification. The guy had all the cards but was totally incompetant. These places have for sure learned how to use the standards to make money.
Jason, What is goal? Have you thought about what kind of class you want to work with? contact me off line if you feel like talking dive master stuff.
Mumphrey,
To put my opinion in context, let me explain that I am close to completing the PADI DM program. All I need is to participate in a continuing education course as part of the internship; hopefully offshore NC next weekend.
IMO there are two important factors to determining the best DM instruction for yourself.
Environment Look, to complete your training in the environment, both dive conditions and economics that you intend to DM in. There are a wide variety of conditions and situations where you could put your DM skills to good use, they tend to require different skill sets. IMO taking an academy DM course in the warm, clear water of the Florida Keys does not prepare one well for my reality, which is OW dives in cold quarries with poor visibility and the ever-present silt. Conversely the course I took here did not prepare me well to act as a DM on a dive boat. Not only do the diving conditions very but also the economic conditions of the operation youll be working with.
Instructor(s) Look for a training environment were youll be exposed to different instructors in the environment you intend DM. The instructor(s) have a dramatic impact on the quality of your training. I like the idea that I was exposed in one way or another to ten different instructors and dive masters during the DM program. While all of them meet the PADI standards, there are vast differences in diving skills and teaching styles. During the training, Ive observed an instructor that is a butt head that I dont even like to be around, a bottom dwelling instructor that I can follow around the quarry from the silt tracks, several good instructors, and several great instructors. Ive seen instructors that go to great lengths to make the OW dives a truly fun and memorable experience for the students and others that have not figured out that diving is a sociable activity. IMO anyone that takes the program with any single instructor is shortchanging himself or herself. They all have different strengths and weaknesses, in the water, with personal skills, and with the economics of the dive operation; they all have something you can learn. For whatever its worth, Ive observed that Instructors that were trained and teach OW in the cold dark quarries are not only better divers but better instructors in that environment than Instructors breed in the warm, clear, silt less waters of the Caribbean.
Mike
To put my opinion in context, let me explain that I am close to completing the PADI DM program. All I need is to participate in a continuing education course as part of the internship; hopefully offshore NC next weekend.
IMO there are two important factors to determining the best DM instruction for yourself.
Environment Look, to complete your training in the environment, both dive conditions and economics that you intend to DM in. There are a wide variety of conditions and situations where you could put your DM skills to good use, they tend to require different skill sets. IMO taking an academy DM course in the warm, clear water of the Florida Keys does not prepare one well for my reality, which is OW dives in cold quarries with poor visibility and the ever-present silt. Conversely the course I took here did not prepare me well to act as a DM on a dive boat. Not only do the diving conditions very but also the economic conditions of the operation youll be working with.
Instructor(s) Look for a training environment were youll be exposed to different instructors in the environment you intend DM. The instructor(s) have a dramatic impact on the quality of your training. I like the idea that I was exposed in one way or another to ten different instructors and dive masters during the DM program. While all of them meet the PADI standards, there are vast differences in diving skills and teaching styles. During the training, Ive observed an instructor that is a butt head that I dont even like to be around, a bottom dwelling instructor that I can follow around the quarry from the silt tracks, several good instructors, and several great instructors. Ive seen instructors that go to great lengths to make the OW dives a truly fun and memorable experience for the students and others that have not figured out that diving is a sociable activity. IMO anyone that takes the program with any single instructor is shortchanging himself or herself. They all have different strengths and weaknesses, in the water, with personal skills, and with the economics of the dive operation; they all have something you can learn. For whatever its worth, Ive observed that Instructors that were trained and teach OW in the cold dark quarries are not only better divers but better instructors in that environment than Instructors breed in the warm, clear, silt less waters of the Caribbean.
Mike
I almost spit my coffee on my computer when I saw that 'Harvard of Diving' comment. Maybe that post was meant to go into the SCUBA Humor section?
Heed the past comments on environment. Try to complete your DM and Instructor work in an area that you plan on diving (or instructing) in regularly.
IMHO Divemaster DOES NOT EQUAL Dive Guide. You may learn the basics of dive theory and management in your DM class, but only experience pushes you into the ability to safely lead groups (& have fun) in OW conditions.
Ask how many Open Water dives you will be conducting during your DM and OWSI training. If no one will give you a straight answer, shop elsewhere. If you get a single digit number, reference my above comments about experience. These 30 day wonder programs - AOW to OWSI leave a lot to be desired.
Get the Course Director on the phone. Ask them what percentage of the course they personally teach, and what percentage is left to 'staff'. Ask them the pass rate of their students, and how many IDC's they have staffed. Drop their name and instructor # into Google and see if they have ever been involved with any 'incidents'. Shoot the breeze with them. What sort of diving interests them? Why are they teaching instructors under (PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc)? If you can't get a straight answer, or it feels like you are trying to buy a used car, WALK AWAY IMMEDIATELY. You are going to drop some serious money with these people, so get your money's worth.
My final word on Florida's SCUBA factories - -
If you are new to diving and want a DM or OWSI card to add to your collection, this is a great way to go. Just please securely mount it on your wall and never present it to actual customers or students.
If you have EARNED (as in paid with blood, sweat, and tears) your DM from a local shop, and you have a ton of local experience under your belt, and scheduling a local IDC is out of the question, these schools are a great way to go. 10 days from when you hit the ground you can have your OWSI.
If you are new to the sport and think you will be Super-Diver after one of these 30 day wonder programs you may have inhaled something other then O2 & N2 on your last dive. Please see your doctor or call DAN immediately.
Heed the past comments on environment. Try to complete your DM and Instructor work in an area that you plan on diving (or instructing) in regularly.
IMHO Divemaster DOES NOT EQUAL Dive Guide. You may learn the basics of dive theory and management in your DM class, but only experience pushes you into the ability to safely lead groups (& have fun) in OW conditions.
Ask how many Open Water dives you will be conducting during your DM and OWSI training. If no one will give you a straight answer, shop elsewhere. If you get a single digit number, reference my above comments about experience. These 30 day wonder programs - AOW to OWSI leave a lot to be desired.
Get the Course Director on the phone. Ask them what percentage of the course they personally teach, and what percentage is left to 'staff'. Ask them the pass rate of their students, and how many IDC's they have staffed. Drop their name and instructor # into Google and see if they have ever been involved with any 'incidents'. Shoot the breeze with them. What sort of diving interests them? Why are they teaching instructors under (PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc)? If you can't get a straight answer, or it feels like you are trying to buy a used car, WALK AWAY IMMEDIATELY. You are going to drop some serious money with these people, so get your money's worth.
My final word on Florida's SCUBA factories - -
If you are new to diving and want a DM or OWSI card to add to your collection, this is a great way to go. Just please securely mount it on your wall and never present it to actual customers or students.
If you have EARNED (as in paid with blood, sweat, and tears) your DM from a local shop, and you have a ton of local experience under your belt, and scheduling a local IDC is out of the question, these schools are a great way to go. 10 days from when you hit the ground you can have your OWSI.
If you are new to the sport and think you will be Super-Diver after one of these 30 day wonder programs you may have inhaled something other then O2 & N2 on your last dive. Please see your doctor or call DAN immediately.
Thanks for all of your valuable input. I will do the additional recomended research on ProDive.
I would like to clear up one apparent misunderstanding though. I live in Miami. Most of my immediate past and future diving will be done here. I have been certified for 21 years and have made several hundred dives (100 in the last eighteen months). I've been to Cozumel, the Bahamas, Turks and Caicos, Puerto Rico, Culebra, Virgin Islands, and Gennie Springs. The closest I have ever come to your silt laden quaries was my OW check-out dive in Canyon Lake, Texas and a few wrecks that my less talented buddies stirred up real good for me. I believe that I am a very good diver. While I have never taught a dive class, I also believe that I am a good teacher.
If I could make the time to do this the hard core way, I would. Perhaps I am just after the card after all.
I would like to clear up one apparent misunderstanding though. I live in Miami. Most of my immediate past and future diving will be done here. I have been certified for 21 years and have made several hundred dives (100 in the last eighteen months). I've been to Cozumel, the Bahamas, Turks and Caicos, Puerto Rico, Culebra, Virgin Islands, and Gennie Springs. The closest I have ever come to your silt laden quaries was my OW check-out dive in Canyon Lake, Texas and a few wrecks that my less talented buddies stirred up real good for me. I believe that I am a very good diver. While I have never taught a dive class, I also believe that I am a good teacher.
If I could make the time to do this the hard core way, I would. Perhaps I am just after the card after all.
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