Diver Dies in Long Sault

[mglasspo]

Mike,

again, for the record, I know nothing about the rules for NAUI/PADI et al. for passing students, but it seems to me like the agencies need to have a catch all inserted in there that allows an instructor to fail a student if they are not comfortable with them. I think the student you pointed out in your last post should have been a lot more patient with you, or you should have been able to fail him.

Going back to the first aid training I do, I can also technically pass someone if they fail the written exam. But generally I don't. I had a student this year fail by one mark and he was very upset at my rigidness in not granting him his certificate. But when it comes to things like that (and here's when I tie in diving) I want someone competant in all aspects when it comes to things like performing first aid, being a dive buddy in a stressful situation, etc. etc.

As far as I see it, when an instructor signs off on their c-card, they are attesting to the fact that they have been taught the theory, written the test, performed the practical skills and are competant. I am wrong here?

I know competant when I am comfortable diving with the diver within their OW limits. Maybe I'm just smoking crack.

Mike

(I know my user name is mglasspo, but just call me Mike, please.)

 

[mglasspo]

Can you define POS for me? I think I have an idea, but want to be crystal clear.. if you need to, PM me if it's not acceptable for the conference

 

[TCDiver1]

Done ... POS defined in PM Mike G.

Don't get me wrong, i agree with much of what Mike F has to say, he just gets so passionate about it sometimes.

 

[MikeFerrara]

gedunk once bubbled...


Come on Mike, you know you have plenty of latitude in defining what "mastery" is.

Yes, but I really wasn't refering to "out of the book) skills. I was refering more to matters of attitude.

If a guy nails all the skills but tells me he's going to take his untrained freind and his own boat and do the Doria next week I can't refuse to certify him for it.

And I agree with you that it isn't all instructors. I do think some agencies are looking the other way though.

 

[MikeFerrara]

mglasspo once bubbled...
Mike,

again, for the record, I know nothing about the rules for NAUI/PADI et al. for passing students, but it seems to me like the agencies need to have a catch all inserted in there that allows an instructor to fail a student if they are not comfortable with them. I think the student you pointed out in your last post should have been a lot more patient with you, or you should have been able to fail him.

Some do. I'm also an IANTD instructor and attitude is specifically listed as something to be evaluated. There is an evaluation form I fill out for each dive. In order to pass the class with the minimum number of dives the student must average a score of 8 out of 10 on all skills. With two or more dives the student can pass with an average of 6. The grading scale is, however subjective, as you would imagine. I don't know about patient...but the guy did the dives and performed the skills before he got a card. He did well when he found there was no other way.

As far as I see it, when an instructor signs off on their c-card, they are attesting to the fact that they have been taught the theory, written the test, performed the practical skills and are competant. I am wrong here?

I know competant when I am comfortable diving with the diver within their OW limits. Maybe I'm just smoking crack.

Mike

(I know my user name is mglasspo, but just call me Mike, please.)

That is what the card should mean. I don't even believe that instructors teach poor classes on purpose. They do it the way they've seen it done and don't know anything else. I have tought lousy classes but at the time I didn't know it. I was doing exactly what I was tought. I thought you were supposed to have to chase students all over on dive 1

 

[mglasspo]

Well, if it's a matter of attitude, I think IANDT is better for that then. I personally believe the instructor should be able to fail the student that tells you he's taking his buddy diving that's not qualified. As far I see it, it's a liability NOT to be able to. They go diving, buddy dies, family finds out you knew about this before you certified, they sue you.. gotta watch your ass.

 

[TCDiver1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

If a guy nails all the skills but tells me he's going to take his untrained freind and his own boat and do the Doria next week I can't refuse to certify him for it.

Sure you can Mike but i do hear what your saying. It easier said than done. Which is a major part of the problem that is out there.

If the agency takes his side over yours then i'll pack my Padi bags and be right along side of you when you leave Padi. My name is on that c-card and i take that seriously just like you do. If the agency won't take it serious, my name will no longer be on any of their c-cards. I would give that guy a refund and send him packing ... post haste ... ba-bye now ... have a nice day. The dude don't have to like it but can do nothing to you or your shop if he paid you nothing for the class.

That is an important distinction to make ... nothing paid ... no services owed. Hopefully you can assess the possible attitude problem before the class starts and route the situation before money exchanges hands so no refund is needed.