Diver Dies in Long Sault

[TCDiver1]

Butch103 once bubbled...
......snip.......
BTW Mike and other instructors, a question, do you feel that all divers should at the very least complete the Rescue course within a certain time frame?

And while I am on this rant should we have renewable certs?

Mike,
You know your welcome up here anytime. Sorry, no caves or caverns but lots of nice wrecks .... but you already knew that.

Butch,
I know some will disagree with this but IMO, OW students get everything they need to be safe, entry level, divers from most OW classes. This assumes the instructor thoroughly teaches the material and skills required by their agency and the student takes those lessons to heart.
It's bad when instructors don't teach what they should but IMO, equally bad when the student pays lip service to requirements to get the c-card and then blows off the lessons learned.

As an instructor, i would love to see everyone go through a good rescue course. Even though i think OW class is currently a good entry level course, i don't think teaching some rescue skills at this level would be a bad thing either. From my experience, the students who truely get the lessons learned from OW, and want to be avid divers, understand the need learn rescue skills, whether they take a class or not.

I have been saying for a long time that diving certs need to be renewable like driver licenses. Personally, from some of the rhetoric i've been hearing lately about the safety of diving, if we don't want government to start regulating diving harder, i think we have to start making c-cards renewable. All it takes is one Senator or Rep. to make this a pet project and we get government control.
I think most of us would agree, that would be a bad thing.

 

[Butch103]

........dam confusing , this diving industry.....

I agree that the OW course provides all needed to SAFELY dive. Perhaps some of the skills, bouyancy etc, of course need to be honed with some practice.

But as you or someone else mentioned just cause they can perform the skills, doesn't necessarily mean they will be good divers.

How do you handle students that can do the skills, therefore can pass. They are safe, just, well I dunno how to express it.

eg I told a student ( I am doing my DM training) 3 times to put on her swim fins (told her Dad the same thing) in deeper water (chest high for example) and immediately after I see her crawling across the rocks out of the water to get her mask and gloves (getting Dad's also). WHile Dad is sitting on his ass on a rock in ankle deep water putting on his fins...

They both did well intheir skills and including bouyancy, but.....oh well

 

[MikeFerrara]

gedunk, thanks I like wrecks.

Butch103,

I had a DM candidate once who was top notch at everything except his attitude stunk. He was almost finished with everything and I wasn't getting anyplace. I called the agency and described the problem. I explained that there was nothing in the standards that clearly disqualified him. Their advice was that if I didn't feel right about signing him off that I shouldn't and they would back me. I had yet another talk with him (like the third) and he pretended to get it. He went to help with students for the last time and he was a model citizen. I signed him off. Oh, how I regret that.

 

[Butch103]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
[B

Butch103,

I had a DM candidate once who was top notch at everything except his attitude stunk. He was almost finished with everything and I wasn't getting anyplace. I called the agency and described the problem. I explained that there was nothing in the standards that clearly disqualified him. Their advice was that if I didn't feel right about signing him off that I shouldn't and they would back me. I had yet another talk with him (like the third) and he pretended to get it. He went to help with students for the last time and he was a model citizen. I signed him off. Oh, how I regret that. [/B]

..........I guess you sometimes just shrug your shoulders, shake your head, and really think about the theory of evolution and wonder if all of us have evolved...

 

[SneakyB'tard]

Passive Natural Selection

 

[MikeFerrara]

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...
Passive Natural Selection

It's not natural or passive. We work very hard to talk people into doing it. They almost always think diving is dangerous, expensive and requires a lot of tough training until we convince them otherwise. The we give them a lousy inadequate class and blame them if they get hurt because they didn't know what we didn't tell them.

 

[mglasspo]

First, the other stuff I think making rescue part of the OW course would be idea, and maybe at the same time make advanced rescue part of AOW. Cut down on the number of courses, increase the course fees and increase safety of divers. I'd be all for that. If it is marketed well, then customers won't balk at the additional price. I'd also like to see more checkout dives added to OW.

Now on the signing DM's off, please remember when I am saying this that I am an AOW certified diver, not anything more than that, so I recognize my ignorance. As a first aid instructor, I have the right to fail any student for any reason. In fact, I have to prove that they passed, not prove that they failed. This allows a student to pass the written exam, pass the practicals and have me fail them just because I don't feel right about them. I have nearly done this twice. Both with young students who just didn't seem to get things that weren't really tested, they've been my borderline students.

My opinion, if you don't want them to by your DM, then don't make them a DM. Same with certifying OW and AOW divers, if you wouldn't want them as your buddy, don't let them be anybody's.

My humble opinion of course.

*Mike ducks and hides in the bushes and awaits the response*

 

[MikeFerrara]

mglasspo

I can't fail a person just because I want to. According to PADI standards, if a diver meets the performance and administration requirements and pays his bill, I have seven days to get him a temporary card. If I choose not to certify a diver for something that I can't relate directly to a failure to meet the written requirements I need to be very careful and I had better be able to justify it.

I had a diver just last summer who I required to do more dives before I signed him off. He ended up calling my wife and yelling at her til she was in tears telling her according to his book he had done everything and he wanted his card. When he finally talked to me, which he didn't want to do, his tone was different but the argument was the same. I of course explained that while he attempted everything he did it poorly at best and that wasn't good enough.

 

[TCDiver1]

Butch103 once bubbled...
........dam confusing , this diving industry.....

How do you handle students that can do the skills, therefore can pass. They are safe, just, well I dunno how to express it.

Yes it can be confusing and i think i know what your trying to get at. For example, you can teach someone that buoyancy control and trim are important, encourage them to keep working at it after they have demostrated adequate mastery of the skills but who is to say if they will continue working at it?

As their instructor, i'm not going to be with them for every dive ... it's up to them to be serious about what they learned. I don't sign off on any OW students unless i feel they have taken it seriously but i have to be honest. Few of those newly certified divers end up working on those skills or for that matter just diving after their certification. Other than not being able to motivate these people to continue diving, i don't see where i am at fault as their instructor if they demonstrated an adequate skill set and attitude during open water class.

The passive selection comment to me, is not that far off the mark in many cases. We all make mistakes, sometimes they are fatal mistakes. Some people have a hard time making good decisions at all. I see them every day, on the road, to and from work. I wonder how many of those people who pull some bonehead move on me on the road will end up in one of my classes? I try not to think about it.

I've asked this question before. Why is diving any different than any other endeavour undertaken by humans? I don't think it is ... mistakes will be made regardless of how well some are trained ... its human nature ... try and stop it and you will lose everytime IMO.

Mike, i agree with you that there is pizz-poor instruction out there, i compete against it every year. But i don't agree with you that it is all the instructors or agencies fault all the time.

 

[TCDiver1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
mglasspo

I can't fail a person just because I want to. According to PADI standards, if a diver meets the performance and administration requirements and pays his bill .......

Come on Mike, you know you have plenty of latitude in defining what "mastery" is.

For those that don't know Padi requires what they call "mastery" of a skill. Defining mastery can be an interesting exercise in frustration but is simple to gig a student on most skills or exercises. You just have to do it and stick by your guns. I have refunded more than my share of class fees to students who disagreed with me.

The guy in your example sounds like he could be one of those run of the mill POS's that would complain no matter what. He goes after your wife for something you did or didn't do. Total POS move in my book.