Diver Dies in Long Sault

[DPVDiver]

I think it is important to realize that an Open Water Certification from whatever agency is merely a ticket to learn and become a better diver. If once certified as an Open Water diver you were as good as Jaques Cousteau we would not have the need for advanced diver training. I certainly hope that none of my students feel they have learned everything after taking an open water class. If they feel that they know everything about diving I do not think That I did my job.

I admit that all together too often student divers rush through and do not master the necessary skills needed for the level of "card" that they posess. However, in this instance I know the certifying instructor and if there is a PADI instructor with higher standards I have yet to see him. I have seen him spend countless extra pool sessions, open water dives, and classroom time for his students to show mastery. He is one of the only instructor I have ever seen tell someone they are not ready! He teaches for the love of teaching, not the MONEY! Let's not forget in this situation the certifying instructor expressed his views that the diver should do some beginner level dives (which this instructor organizes routinely for his students) before continuing on to the advanced level. This instructor also did an extra pool session with this student after his open water dives because the student wanted to try out new equipment.

As far as your attitude TICK, I think you should keep your opinions about who is to blame for someones death to yourself. Lets not attack somebody who was not even present for the incident! Let us find TRUE facts and learn from this tragic happening.

My thoughts are with the hearts of the diver's family.

KG

 

[Dan MacKay]

DPVDiver once bubbled...
As far as your attitude TICK, I think you should keep your opinions about who is to blame for someones death to yourself. Lets not attack somebody who was not even present for the incident! Let us find TRUE facts and learn from this tragic happening.
KG

Facts neither true nor false, they are merely facts. I may be a little bit more familiar with this incident than you would care to realize.

In order to conduct an accident analysis very often not to much can be gained until the accident is viewed in a complete manner. Simply observing the scence of the accident renders just the effect not the cause. In the case of and aircraft accident the entire training history of the pilot is examined included those of his instructors. The entire maintenance history of the aircraft is examined as well as the entire flight history.

Employing just a minimum of this protocol to this incident, since this diver had a very short career, would in not be appropriate to look back just one page?

I entirely disagree with your statement the the original instructor was not there. He was very much there embodied in the skill and knowledge of the unfortunate student that died. When faced with the basic critical decision of how to deal with a lost reg which by this time should have been drilled into him and executed just from muscle memory alone he made the wrong decision.

From my previous post I am not placing the entire blame on his certifying instructor. I am saying that this was the first link in the accident chain. How strong or weak that link is, is yet to be determined. But as part of the investigation it should be indeed examined.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Fat_Tony, I agree that ratios are often unmanageable. If the instructor is 20 ft away and there are eight people inbetween the instructor and the student with the problem the chances of a successful response to a problem is nil.

DPVDiver, The original instructors advice may very well have been this divers best bet.

 

[DPVDiver]

Mike and Tony,

I agree about the ratios. I have seen too many times Instructors out at Prescott with 7 or 8 students by them selves. Why? Begause the "standards" say they can. Myself I never teach without a DM. I always ask myself - If I had 6 students by myself at 40ft on open water dive 1 and one bolted. If I left to control their ascent who would stay on te bottom with the others? That is why I always have a Divemaster. Remember the ratios are for optimal conditions, and even at that they are too high. Perhaps a Divemaster should be mandatory for all training.

Tick, your right to fully check out the situation because too often people are just handed their cards for going through the motions. I assure you this was not the case here. I may have got a little upset because he is a good friend of mine and a great instructor.

Has anyone else heard that this diver may have been diving with a 72 cuft steel with a J valve set to reserve. Thus showing he still had air in the gauge but it would not come out. If this is true this may be a good place to start as I know the certifying store would not use such relics so the diver would not have been completely familiar with this type of gear eventhough it is mentioned briefly in the course. I have a J valve too, it's downstairs on the shelf with all the other antiques.

 

[divebuddydale]

DPVDiver once bubbled...
Mike and Tony,

I have a J valve too, it's downstairs on the shelf with all the other antiques.

LOL .. I dove with a J Valve up to last year. The tank worked fine, I just kept it switched down all the time, and removed the wire that allows you to switch back and forth. I got the tank for free (My father -in - Law was not allowed to dive anymore by Dr's orders), so beggars can't be choosers.

Dale

 

[mglasspo]

I continue to use J-Valves with my gear, one of the tanks I use on almost all dives is a J. The other is a K, as long as you're aware of the differences, then there are no problems in using these valves. Even with a novice.

 

[SneakyB'tard]

The problem is not so much with the J valve, but with a 72 being used on an advanced course.

If a diver is new he tends to use up alot more air...a 72 in a panic situation could last....5 minutes. I know an 80 wouldn't be much better but still it makes a difference. New divers need the extra room to breath ie bigger tanks.

I am sure there are different opinions.

 

[divebuddydale]

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...
The problem is not so much with the J valve, but with a 72 being used on an advanced course.

If a diver is new he tends to use up alot more air...a 72 in a panic situation could last....5 minutes. I know an 80 wouldn't be much better but still it makes a difference. New divers need the extra room to breath ie bigger tanks.

I am sure there are different opinions.

There are a number of factors that if we sat back we could find alot we would like to change.

Tank at least 80CU FT
More time between OW & AOW
Better Dive site for relaitve newbies


you guys could probably add more I am sure

Dale

 

[mglasspo]

I agree that someone likely needs more than a few weeks between OW and AOW, I personally took a year before I felt I was ready (notice that I felt I was ready and that's my baseline for doing things), I don't think that 8 cubic feet of air if someone is likely to blow through 72 cubic feet that quickly. If that's the case, the argument could be made for them to dive their dives with doubles on (now the dive stores would LOVE that ) so I really don't see 8 cubic feet making enough of a difference, the only difference is, the dives with the 72cuft will be a bit shorter. You should be surfacing with enough air to deal with problems anyways. I also think (note I have not dived on the sites in question) that an advanced level dive should be on the advanced course. Submit your students to the stresses and challenges that they will face in their diving at the advanced level. I'm not advocating just throwing them in and letting them sink or swim. In the predive briefing tell them what to expect and how to deal with it. If you're still not comfortable with their skills, do another dive and practice them, but by no means skip an advanced dive for the advanced course. That's ridiculous.

 

[sisterJ]

GTADiver once bubbled...

My sources are excellent. I suggest you check yours. The instructor (initials PL) now a PADI Course Director was instructing the course for KDS, off of KDS's boat. A boat that had no VHF Maritime radio, no oxygen, etc etc.

GTA

You might consider rechecking you sources. The incident that you are refering to was a FSAC sponsered event. The FSAC chartered the boat from KDS. The victim was a Major from the Canadian Armed Forces.

sisterJ