Diver drowns in guided cenote dive

[boulderjohn]

Not everyone in Mexico is like this and I'm a huge Natalie Gibb (MightyMouse) fan. She knows the systems and knows what's going to bite my butt. She knows where conventions have not been followed. I trust Natalie because she has earned my trust. I have fun diving with Nat and would probably not enjoy these caves without her. I don't want or need a guide here in Fl, but I won't dive without one in Mexico.

Natalie is a friend of mine, and I trust her as much as you do. I think she does a great job.

But if you are an OW diver with no special overhead training, she will take you on a guided cenote dive. I was with her, bringing up the rear, when she led such a dive for two friends of mine.

 

[glassbottom]

First: I am not an arbiter of what is safe/unsafe for any particular diver. I'm only the arbiter for me. In fact, my second rule of diving is that you can call a dive at any time, for any reason, with no questions asked and no repercussions. It's my rule of fun, which means if you're not having fun, then you need to stop until you can resolve what ever is stealing your fun. Or not dive.

Agreed. And myself and my buddies go by the same ruleset. We are only in charge of our own soul, we can thumb for any reason etc etc.

But as a new relatively diver, evaluating a potential new dive site, and doing pre-dive research on the site, going by what others have said it became apparent maybe its not quite as cut and dry.

So we resolved to check it out, evaluate the circumstances and decide on site using our judgment.

Yet and still, it presented us with a less cut and dry view of "just say no".....

Secondly: While I wasn't present for this accident, I have dove a number of systems in the area. Compared to North Central Florida, they are very chaotic. They don't follow the same conventions and a number of people putting in lines don't seem to have safety as their primary concern. The two cave communities have far different motivations and cultures. Consequently, I find the caves in Mexico unnecessarily unsafe. I get the idea that they are more interested in earning the yankee dollar and are willing to sacrifice a few tourists here and there in order to do. Not everyone in Mexico is like this and I'm a huge Natalie Gibb (MightyMouse) fan. She knows the systems and knows what's going to bite my butt. She knows where conventions have not been followed. I trust Natalie because she has earned my trust. I have fun diving with Nat and would probably not enjoy these caves without her. I don't want or need a guide here in Fl, but I won't dive without one in Mexico.

I would agree. Almost every time I see a posting on someone getting hit by CO in their tanks its MX as well. I have come to the conclusion they aren't as safety conscious. I also don't do trust me dives, at least since the OW certification phase (if you consider some of them with my instructor as such).

All of these places claim to be sanitized for OW divers. Are they? They might be fine for most divers, but are they for you? If you are worried about your safety, then you're probably not having fun. Why push it? It doesn't make sense. None at all.

This is where our conundrum developed. We felt relatively comfortable with the situation despite knowing it goes against the theory we have been taught ("just say no"). When evaluating it we saw many, including those on this board, saying it was relatively benign for OW divers, new included, despite being overhead. When on site we felt comfortable enough and frankly ive had dives (low vis, higher current) that had me more anxious, but in our post dive discussions there was still the lingering "we don't know what we don't know, so was it that benign? Where we playing chicken with murphy?". I cant speak for my partner but it was something I wasn't able to shake, but maybe im a drama queen?

Yeah, like a cavern class!

While this was our conclusion post dive, my point was the lead up to it. the pre-dive planning and conversations, the research on the site and specific dive left us in a much more murky judgment call than "just say no" dictated. Hell I felt safer in the cavern than I would have drifting between the devils eye and ballroom in the navigable waterway with 10-15 ft vis and towing a flag (which we did thumb because of the redneck boat traffic being heavy during spring break). But again, it was still a violation of the tenant of our training.

So while we resolved to not do it again until we get a cavern cert, it seemed more of a personal choice than one regulated by our training. More in spite of it, than a result of it I guess I would say. Hell I don't know.

 

[The Chairman]

John, I've taught classes in the springs without violating standards or taking people into places they should not be. I would trust Natalie's judgment about what was safe and what should be avoided, just as I trust Ginnie Spring's judgment on the Ballroom. Is it for everyone? No, not at all.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
This is where our conundrum developed. We felt relatively comfortable with the situation despite knowing it goes against the theory we have been taught ("just say no"). When evaluating it we saw many, including those on this board, saying it was relatively benign for OW divers, new included, despite being overhead. When on site we felt comfortable enough and frankly ive had dives (low vis, higher current) that had me more anxious, but in our post dive discussions there was still the lingering "we don't know what we don't know, so was it that benign? Where we playing chicken with murphy?". I cant speak for my partner but it was something I wasn't able to shake, but maybe im a drama queen?
. . .

I don't think you're being a drama queen by being unable to shake the nagging feeling ("worry"?) that maybe you shouldn't be doing a dive, either because of what "you don't know you don't know" or because of what you do know. If I went by NetDoc's guideline (as I understood it) of don't dive if you are worried, I'd hardly dive at all. Every dive gives me some amount of worry and some amount of fun. It's a continuum, without a clear dividing line to tell me when the worry outweighs the fun.

 

[The Chairman]

So while we resolved to not do it again until we get a cavern cert, it seemed more of a personal choice than one regulated by our training. More in spite of it, than a result of it I guess I would say. Hell I don't know.

I'm not sure if I shared this here or not... many, many years ago we had a group dive at Devil's Den. I had never dove there before and so believed what the owners and the other people on SB told me about the site.

At one point, I found myself on the wrong side of the fence. Whoa. This wasn't as sanitized as they suggested. I didn't make the second dive and being a newly minted instructor, I went to their pool with a wannabe diver and did a discover Scuba with him. I never went back to Devil's Den until after I finished Cavern class. BTW, I don't conduct Discover Scuba dives any more either.

 

[The Chairman]

Every dive gives me some amount of worry and some amount of fun.

You've just got to figure out if the fun outweighs the worry (or hassle, or money, or training, or...)

I usually have a "worry" or two about every dive I do. Proactive consternation usually goes a long way to keep the fun in the dive. However, I often listen to those little voices of doubt. If their din exceeds my comfort level, I call or abort the dive. There's nothing down there worth dying for.

 

[boulderjohn]

John, I've taught classes in the springs without violating standards or taking people into places they should not be.

I am honestly in the dark about your position on this issue. Earlier in the thread you appeared to say NO ONE should enter a cavern, with or without a guide, without full cave training--not even apprentice wold do. That goes well beyond the standards. I thought I must have misunderstood, so I asked you to clarify. In fact, I asked a total of three times before giving up. As I understood your position in this thread, you are at the extreme end of the "just say no" spectrum--don't go into any overhead without formal training, which would mean at least cavern training. (Or is it cave?)

I would trust Natalie's judgment about what was safe and what should be avoided, just as I trust Ginnie Spring's judgment on the Ballroom. Is it for everyone? No, not at all.

So how does one develop good judgment about what overheads are safe and which ones are not? In the very beginning of this thread, you said there as no judgment to be had--cave certification or nothing. (Again, that is why I asked for clarification.)

 

[Lorenzoid]

You've just got to figure out if the fun outweighs the worry (or hassle, or money, or training, or...)

I usually have a "worry" or two about every dive I do. Proactive consternation usually goes a long way to keep the fun in the dive. However, I often listen to those little voices of doubt. If their din exceeds my comfort level, I call or abort the dive. There's nothing down there worth dying for.

Now, if John could teach me to determine exactly when the din of the little voices exceeds my comfort level, I'd take his course.

 

[The Chairman]

O ONE should enter a cavern, with or without a guide, without full cave training

APPROPRIATE training. If you're in the cavern zone: you should have a cavern cert. If you're in the cave you should have a cave cert... Don't do jumps if you're not at least apprentice and so forth.

So how does one develop good judgment about what overheads are safe and which ones are not?

She's a cave instructor. She can take you one level beyond your highest cert level. If you're OW, she has been trained to take you into a cavern area. If you're cavern she can take you to intro and so forth. Without professional guidance, it's a crap shoot. Neither you or I can imbue someone with common sense. You can cover every possible scenario and a fool will still find a way to kill themselves. That's just reality. Unfortunately, the family is normally in denial about their dead kin. They couldn't be that stupid, so it has to be someone else's fault.

There are guides and then there are guides who are also instructors (like Nat). In Mexico, it's common for non-cave instructor guides to exceed their limits and take people beyond their training. It's my personal belief that this practice is dangerous and that we'll keep reading about such accidents until they adopt a more conservative approach. Cave diving is dangerous enough as it is without allowing non instructors to lead the uninitiated into caverns and caves.

 

[Dan G]

APPROPRIATE training. If you're in the cavern zone: you should have a cavern cert. If you're in the cave you should have a cave cert... Don't do jumps if you're not at least apprentice and so forth.

She's a cave instructor. She can take you one level beyond your highest cert level. If you're OW, she has been trained to take you into a cavern area. If you're cavern she can take you to intro and so forth. Without professional guidance, it's a crap shoot. Neither you or I can imbue someone with common sense. You can cover every possible scenario and a fool will still find a way to kill themselves. That's just reality. Unfortunately, the family is normally in denial about their dead kin. They couldn't be that stupid, so it has to be someone else's fault.

There are guides and then there are guides who are also instructors (like Nat). In Mexico, it's common for non-cave instructor guides to exceed their limits and take people beyond their training. It's my personal belief that this practice is dangerous and that we'll keep reading about such accidents until they adopt a more conservative approach. Cave diving is dangerous enough as it is without allowing non instructors to lead the uninitiated into caverns and caves.

Well being snowed in and unable to access the roads that lead to the ski areas has its advantages... I read through this entire thread yesterday and have a comment or two.

I am not cave or cavern cert nor have any cavern training beyond the amount I did with a cavern instructor in Tulum when I dove Dos Ojos a few years back. I am please to read @NetDoc statement I put in bold above as this means I chose wisely who to hire as the person bringing us to the cenotes. However, I am doubtful most people know this and it is NOT common sense to know these things.

The second part I put in bold is an important point and one that has been brought up several times in this thread. I also appreciate those who have stated that this is not unique to Mexico.

It seems to me that the certifying agencies could be more diligent in ensuring that the shops that use their names are in fact following their guidelines.

On a final note about 'common sense,' I think people forget what they did not always know. It is unfair to simply state that common sense cures 'trust me' dives. Every single day I go skiing, I see someone who is on terrain above their ability level. More often than not, they are with a 'friend' who brought them there. I, too, get as upset about this as some have on this thread have about trust me dives. In other words, I get it, but I do not think it is common sense to not follow the advice of a DM or instructor.