Diver drowns in guided cenote dive

[EFX]

Now, if John could teach me to determine exactly when the din of the little voices exceeds my comfort level, I'd take his course.

I think the little voices stem from feelings. But you can't teach feelings. On every dive I ask myself "How do I feel?" At the start of the dive I access how I feel physically; does anything hurt, am I uncomfortable, etc. The more important question I ask myself is "How do I feel mentally?" Whatever the feeling is I try to pinpoint the cause of it. Without knowing an exact cause I can't hope to alleviate it. This is where the training comes in. Proper training gives me the tools to solve the problem or concern. With common sense and proper training good judgment can be applied to alleviate or minimize the concern.

So, I think you got it backwards. Take the cavern course and dive the cavern. Access your feelings and take appropriate action. Do this anytime the immediate environment changes. Fun is important but I think it is a poor guide to judge our feelings. Fun is a spectrum. It's like one moving target trying to find another moving target.

 

[EFX]

It sure seems to me that these last comments are indicative of a need for a solid course on the topic of the relative dangers of different overhead environments.

In regards to safe cavern/cenote dives I agree with NetDoc in that if you can't take a guided dive with a qualified trained professional then stay out of those environments. Getting the proper certs will go a long way in preventing accidents whether you dive with a guide or not.

Congratulations on your acceptance by PADI to create a class on the dangers of overhead environments. For serious divers it should help in giving them the tools to apply sound judgment in making (or staying away from) these particular dives. There is one class of diver who would benefit most by taking the class but probably won't -- the OW vacation diver. How do we reach them? PADI can include more information on the dangers of overhead environments and show a video on what can happen when you don't have/follow the proper training. Instructors need to emphasize the dangers beyond the "Don't dive beyond your training" mantra. What do you think?

 

[dmaziuk]

I think PADI cannot fix stupid.

 

[The Chairman]

Thanks for the kind words.

It seems to me that the certifying agencies could be more diligent in ensuring that the shops that use their names are in fact following their guidelines.

That's really not their job. Guides are not in their purview as the guides are usually not truly professionals. Even then, I'm not even sure how bound professionals are by the various agencies when they aren't teaching. Unless it's an NSS-CDS issue, I don't think there are any standards for this. IOW, choose any other agency and you can do this with impunity.

Caveat emptor: Let the buyer beware! If you're going to risk your life, please research what you're doing. We try to get the word out, but we can only do so much. Again, there's nothing down there worth dying for. Don't play with becoming the next tourist we read about here on ScubaBoard. We don't need the traffic that bad.

 

[kensuf]

Actually... NAUI has had a certified cave guide/cavern guide program for years -- before the NSSCDS one existed. So some agencies do have standards for this.

 

[The Chairman]

I looked at NAUI's site but could not discern what the guide could and could not do. I found this at the NSS/CDS site:

Cave Diver Supervisor

1. This program is designed to provide training in dive leadership to competent, certified cave divers who will lead or guide other certified cave divers on cave dives. A Cave Diver Supervisor is a leadership or instructor-in-training rating.
2. Certified cave diver supervisors are placed in a role to continue developing the proficiency of certified cavern and cave divers in the overhead environment.
3. All NSS-CDS Cave Diver instructor candidates must complete this class at the beginning of their internship, and prior to being issued an internship card.
4. All guides are encouraged to take this program as part of their development as a guide.
5. Cave Diver Supervisors may supervise dives with any level of certified cavern and cave divers from a recognized cave diver training agency where the cave diver supervisor also possesses that qualification or rating.

Personally, I had no idea that this even existed. Ditto with the NAUI credential. Not sure if having this first makes NAUI's any better, though. I would like to see what it entails. If number one is not clear enough that they all must possess the required certs, number five makes it crystal clear. I like that.

 

[Dan G]

Thanks for the kind words.


That's really not their job. Guides are not in their purview as the guides are usually not truly professionals. Even then, I'm not even sure how bound professionals are by the various agencies when they aren't teaching. Unless it's an NSS-CDS issue, I don't think there are any standards for this. IOW, choose any other agency and you can do this with impunity.

Caveat emptor: Let the buyer beware! If you're going to risk your life, please research what you're doing. We try to get the word out, but we can only do so much. Again, there's nothing down there worth dying for. Don't play with becoming the next tourist we read about here on ScubaBoard. We don't need the traffic that bad.

As a consumer I think it should be. Dive shops and the like use certifying agencies as a way to attract customers and legitimize their business. That means that agencies have a responsibility to ensure that business are not putting guides with divers when they should be putting instructors with them.

Buyer beware is fair enough, but to expect that many of us will have the same level of expertise as you is unreasonable.

 

[rongoodman]

I might have missed it in 26 pages, but has there been any more information presented as to what actually happened, or how the deceased diver became separated?

 

[chillyinCanada]

Sorry, no, not that I've seen either.

 

[kensuf]

I looked at NAUI's site but could not discern what the guide could and could not do. I found this at the NSS/CDS site:

Cave Diver Supervisor

1. This program is designed to provide training in dive leadership to competent, certified cave divers who will lead or guide other certified cave divers on cave dives. A Cave Diver Supervisor is a leadership or instructor-in-training rating.
2. Certified cave diver supervisors are placed in a role to continue developing the proficiency of certified cavern and cave divers in the overhead environment.
3. All NSS-CDS Cave Diver instructor candidates must complete this class at the beginning of their internship, and prior to being issued an internship card.
4. All guides are encouraged to take this program as part of their development as a guide.
5. Cave Diver Supervisors may supervise dives with any level of certified cavern and cave divers from a recognized cave diver training agency where the cave diver supervisor also possesses that qualification or rating.

Personally, I had no idea that this even existed. Ditto with the NAUI credential. Not sure if having this first makes NAUI's any better, though. I would like to see what it entails. If number one is not clear enough that they all must possess the required certs, number five makes it crystal clear. I like that.

Here's from the NAUI S&P.

Cave Guide (Technical Support Leader)

OVERVIEW AND QUALIFICATIONS

This course is to provide the diver with the skills and knowledge needed to minimize risks while leading guided tours in caverns and caves.

Upon successful completion of this course, graduates are considered competent to plan and execute guided tours only in portions of a cavern or cave in which they have completed at least 25 previous dives.

WHO MAY CONDUCT

• Any active-status NAUI Instructor who:
○ Is certified as a NAUI Cave Diver Level II or equivalent, and
○ Has completed the NAUI Technical Diving Instructor course and completed the instructor application process and received Technical Instructor designation to teach this course from the NAUI Training Department.

PREREQUISITES
• Age. Minimum is 18 years by the water phase of the course.
• Certification/Experience/Knowledge.
○ NAUI Divemaster or equivalent.
○ NAUI Cave Level II Diver, or
○ Certification as a Decompression Diver and Full Cave Diver by another agency and completion of a NTEC orientation seminar.
○ Proof of at least 100 logged cave dives after prerequisite cave certification, with at least of 50 hours of bottom time.
○ The instructor is to ensure adequate student knowledge and capability before any open water training and shall use skill or other evaluations to do so. One open water dive (which does not count toward the minimum number of dives required for the course) may be used as a screening and evaluation dive. This is not required when the student’s diving proficiencies are well known to the instructor.