Diver lost in Cozumel today

[Mike]

I'm am troubled by the immediate howls when people suggest that the DMs have responsibilty for the safety of their divers. I clearly and loudly acknowledge and understand that we are all first-and-foremost repsonsible for oursleves. But, I am now at about 65 dives and am just now becoming comfortable and realizing how much (a) I still do not know; and (b) how much I really did not get in dives #1 - #50 (OMG or #1 - #10 especially). The dive shops hold themselves out as safe places for vacation divers to go and learn to dive under the watchful eyes of highly trained people who put sfety first. PADI gives its name to only those places it chooses to hold out to the public as meeting its qualifications. Even if I knew and understod that I was responsible for myself on my early dives, I now realize that even though I studied and understood my lessons, I did not really have a clue of where I was or what I was doing for the most part. I was totally at the mercy of the DM to ensure that I got to where I was going and got back up safely. I am not blaming the DM for the sad event in Cozumel last week. I have no facts and do not believe in outsiders casting blame in any event. That is for the family and the courts - if ever. But, the kneejerk response on SB is to stress personal responsibilty. I get it and I accept it. But DMs need to accept that they are advertising themselves as being repsonsible; holding themselves out to the public (including cruise ship passengers) as providing a safety-oriented service; and they cannot just say that divers are repsonsible for themselves. No one who has done just 2 twenty foot certification dives is fit to dive except under close supervision. Intentionally or not (and I think it is) PADI and its dive shops offer the public the promise of the needed supervision, experience, and safety. They are indeed responsible generally - for al least reaonably performing the services that they claim and are paid to perform - and that is a lot more than just being a tour guide. They are responsible from the beginning to the end to take reaosnable care of their divers. I know that the concept of reasonable care is very elastic and imprecise. Courts know what it means (yes I am a lawyer). No one has to be perfect and guarantee the safety of an idiot who deliberately imperils himself, herself or others. But you also cannot shirk all repsonsibility and say that its is always the diver's repsonsibilty when you have invited very under-experienced people to pay you money to dive with the promise of supervision and safety.

I'm in almost total agreement with you, the only difference and its a big one is that we need to substitute Dive Operation for Dive Master in the above.

The Dive Operation has the first contact with it's customer and should quiz them about their dive level at the booking time online or in person and make the appropriate selections of DM or limitations to diving. That's a better way then putting this on the DM who many times is just meeting a diver on the boat that morning for the first time and probably a mixed boat where he's already dived with 1/2 of the group and now needs to interrogate and qualify the new divers in front of everybody else staring at them.

 

[mdegen1]

I really feel sorry for her and her family.I guess we all need to remember that there are always risks involved in diving Of course that is why everyone doesn't do it.We all hope this will not happen but it doe's.Any sport weather underwater or above has risks and there will never be a perfect way to do them without risks.Only thing I would like to add is that I hope the people going down in the water are trained enough to do it and they have the sense to do what they have to when things happen.Last year I got caught up in a strong current on one of the walls at Cozumel and recovered by going into a cave to rest.It happens. I also think that most DM's out there do a good job but again things happen. I have dove a few times in Cozumel and have had very good luck with them. I think that as long as a person doe's their homework before their dives like they should, they hopefully should be ok at the end.I don't think people should avoid diving places like Cozumel due to fear of them, but like I said they should do their homework. Good luck to you all in your adventures in diving and keep it safe is all I got left to say.

 

[DandyDon]

By the way, the lost diver was not the only tragedy of that day. Our DM informed us the next morning of another diver who died from injuries she suffered on a dive near ours - apparently, she inflated to ascend (presumably to get out of a down current) and failed to control her ascent to the surface once she got out of the current. She suffered either decompression or lung overexpansion and died the next day.

Sounds like a dreadful day. Damn. I've always thought swimming away from the wall to get out of the down current my best choice, but inidents vary - hard to say what's best. Glad you got out ok.

That's the first I've seen on another fatality, and of course we don't get much news from Coz. Do you know any more...?

 

[RickyF]

I'm am troubled by the immediate howls when people suggest that the DMs have responsibilty for the safety of their divers. I clearly and loudly acknowledge and understand that we are all first-and-foremost repsonsible for oursleves. But, I am now at about 65 dives and am just now becoming comfortable and realizing how much (a) I still do not know; and (b) how much I really did not get in dives #1 - #50 (OMG or #1 - #10 especially). The dive shops hold themselves out as safe places for vacation divers to go and learn to dive under the watchful eyes of highly trained people who put sfety first. PADI gives its name to only those places it chooses to hold out to the public as meeting its qualifications. Even if I knew and understod that I was responsible for myself on my early dives, I now realize that even though I studied and understood my lessons, I did not really have a clue of where I was or what I was doing for the most part. I was totally at the mercy of the DM to ensure that I got to where I was going and got back up safely. I am not blaming the DM for the sad event in Cozumel last week. I have no facts and do not believe in outsiders casting blame in any event. That is for the family and the courts - if ever. But, the kneejerk response on SB is to stress personal responsibilty. I get it and I accept it. But DMs need to accept that they are advertising themselves as being repsonsible; holding themselves out to the public (including cruise ship passengers) as providing a safety-oriented service; and they cannot just say that divers are repsonsible for themselves. No one who has done just 2 twenty foot certification dives is fit to dive except under close supervision. Intentionally or not (and I think it is) PADI and its dive shops offer the public the promise of the needed supervision, experience, and safety. They are indeed responsible generally - for al least reaonably performing the services that they claim and are paid to perform - and that is a lot more than just being a tour guide. They are responsible from the beginning to the end to take reaosnable care of their divers. I know that the concept of reasonable care is very elastic and imprecise. Courts know what it means (yes I am a lawyer). No one has to be perfect and guarantee the safety of an idiot who deliberately imperils himself, herself or others. But you also cannot shirk all repsonsibility and say that its is always the diver's repsonsibilty when you have invited very under-experienced people to pay you money to dive with the promise of supervision and safety.

I can agree with some of what you say, but imagine this. You are a DM leading 6 divers who are supposed to be certified AOW for these dives. You have three sets of divers entering the water where current is known to be a factor. Lets say you are leading these divers who may be spread out anywhere from 5 to 20 yards behind and following you the DM. It is almost impossible to watch where you are going, be aware of signs that currents are changing, pointing out stuff and keeping an eye on everyone to make sure they are safe. To me, that is an impossible task. If the DM's primary responsibility was the safety of everyone, ideally they should have two DM's on each dive. One to lead and one to follow to make sure that no one gets in trouble and to assist if needed. In most places I dive, the DM helps you get on and off the boat. You are totally responsible to accomplish the dive and get back to the boat. Just my .02.......

 

[vcblklion]

First and foremost, my sympathies and prayers for the victims. These situations is precisely what drew me to selling the Nautilus Lifeline system. I'm acutually working to having one myself by May when I go to Roatan. One way or the other I intend to have this with me when I go diving especially in foreign diving venues. I was very impressed with this system and believe every diver should have one...just like a save-a-dive kit.

You can go here http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cl...15560-nautilus-lifeline-gps-system-299-a.html for more info.

 

[Sorrows]

Sounds like a dreadful day. Damn. I've always thought swimming away from the wall to get out of the down current my best choice, but inidents vary - hard to say what's best.

Don, that's what I did on a dive at Pelileu, and had a devil of a time getting back to the group. I guess it worked, but it was a bit scary. Okay, it was a LOT scary. Tossed up and down and out like a very bad ride at a very bad amusement park.

It seems to me we've been concentrating on the DM and the victim and her buddy once they were in the water, when we should be asking WHY they were at Santa Rosa Wall with only 10 completed dives? That means neither should have been diving past 60' and SR is at least 80. And that doesn't even get into the conditions of the day, which I understand were quite turbulent.

Apparently, there was a mixed group of divers on board and the site was busy with other groups as well. Forgive me for speculating, but I'm guessing the bigger group of divers wanted to go to Santa Rosa, and this unfortunate couple went along. I feel somewhat safe offering this speculation because this is pretty much what happened to us last month when we were in Coz, and were on the boat with the big dive group. (Actually, this happens whenever you are with the big dive group!) It didn't bother us so much, as we aren't brand new and the conditions at SR were fine. But with only 10 dives?!? Yikes!

The DMs, of course, have to worry about pissing off their regular customers and losing their tips, so they go along as well. (Also not just in Cozumel). And they have lots of other people to worry about, once they are in the water. I was discussing this with my husband last night--how strange, when you think about it, that it is so often the new-ish divers (more likely to go through air quickly) who are ascending alone or with their buddies before the more experienced divers. I do not know whether she had a signaling device with her or not.

 

[DandyDon]

Yeah, sounds like most on the various threads fought the currents and inflated BCs, which can burn back gas and/or send you into a rapid ascent when you break free. Like a rip current, I'd rather swim out of it. But then I carry a 19 pony tank. Only seen one other in use in Coz in all of my trips.

No, I don't think the newbies should have been on SR Wall. The cruise ships tell their passengers that it's safer to go with their contract operators, stores, cafes, etc. which is bull as it's all about the commissions. So the ship dumps them on Sand Dollar - not at all my preferred operator, then Sand Dollar throw them on a boat with no chance for a weight check or checkout dive, so there they are thinking that the Op must know what they're doing sending them on that boat. No cautions about hiring a private DM for their first boat dives, and so on.

 

[fred3798]

First, M.A.D. thank you for your post. It must have been an awful day for you and your family as well as everyone there. Thank you for sharing with us.

Next, Mike says he would agree with me if I placed responsibility on the Dive Operator rather than the DM. I agree completely. The DM is an employee. The responsibility is with the employer although the employee carries out the employer's role. RickyF goes the other way and says that it is impossible for a DM to be responsible for the safety of the group and says: "If the DM's primary responsibility was the safety of everyone, ideally they should have two DM's on each dive. One to lead and one to follow to make sure that no one gets in trouble and to assist if needed." Doesn't he just make Mike's point? Safety comes down to money - how many staff will the Dive Operator commit to fulfill the promise of safe, supervised dives and, by contrast, how much will divers spend for a safe, supervised dive? Perhaps more experienced divers would be happy to pay less for a single DM who was a boat helper and tour guide only; whereas less experienced divers might pay more for added supervision. Of course one will never be able to tell when a diver cheaps out and takes less than he or she should. But, from a lawyer's perspective, I think the Operators would be better protected if they actually advertised or made you sign a form that said "You are choosing to have only one DM. That person cannot be responsible for the safety of a group and you agree that the DM is just provided to assist with equipment and, if he or she chooses, to point out interesting sites". Lord knows that standard release they have you sign now is probably of little help to them in most courts in the US and Canada. No Court likes standard form gobbledygook. I am probaby getting too far off topic and will stop. My point was simply that we can't answer every unfortunate event with a stream of "The diver is responsible for herself". While true, it is incomplete. The Operator has some responsiblity. They advertise their safety and rely on divers believing that the Operator supervises their safety to get business..

 

[Mike]

Lots of great points here.

So here's the solution.

New policy as of today.

All dive operators divide their clients by experience. Dive op XYZ has 7 customers going out today. 5 are advanced. 2 are newbies. XYZ informs the 3 that their new costs for diving today are $40 more per tank. Reason is pricing is subject to change when the dives go out based on total number of divers on each boat. You're on boat A and you all owe us $80 more because we only have 3 divers on your boat now since we are giving you your own boat with no newbies on it, you want to go to Punta Sur? No problem.

Newbies- your dives today are now an extra $125 a dive. Reason is pricing is subject to change when the dives go out based on total number of divers on each boat. Because you're new we are putting you on the newbie boat, we actually only own 1 boat so we are calling our friend and he is renting us his boat and captain so we can put you two on your own boat and we are going to a shallow dive site. So please fork over $500 now.

Everybody will be safe, and everybody will be happy.

All those people who post on scubaboard asking about the lowest price for dives for their Cozumel vacation will have to stop posting since the dive costs are now all variable.

 

[WSOPFAN]

Hello all.

I'm new to Scubaboard but registered and decided to post because I was just up the wall from this diver the morning she went missing. I was diving with my wife and two kids, brother and sister-in-law, our former scuba instructor and his wife, and our favorite DM - Julio from Opal's Dream. We dove Palancar Caves that morning and were dealing with currents most of the dive - mostly funneling through the coral formations down towards the wall. During our ascent, my daughter and I were caught in a down current that took us away from the wall and down into the deep blue. I had an unwavering grip on my daughter and was finning at full force all the while watching my depth increase. I signaled my daughter to fin, which she did and still we went deeper. We then tried to swim towards the wall to see if we could get out of the current and hug the wall, but as we did so our depth increased at a faster pace. During this time, my former scuba instructor was hovering above us banging his tank and motioning for us to ascend. He was probably 20-30 feet above us and was not caught in the down current, and thus, he couldn't understand why we weren't ascending with the rest of the group. At last, I inflated my BCD and finned as hard as I could and was only then able to stop our descent and work out of the down current and control the speed of our ascent. Ditching my weights was the next step, but luckily it didn't get that far.

When we surfaced, the ocean was just plain weird. My entire dive group was caught in a 30 foot diameter whirlpool and circling each other. These whirlpools were everywhere - large circular areas of smooth, swirling water, surrounded by choppy water on the outskirts of the whirlpool. It was the freakiest ocean water I had ever seen. Dive boats were everywhere looking for their divers. As we all loaded into a boat, a couple who had their own surface buoy and apparently had been floating at the surface for some time called out to our boat captain asking him to help them find their dive boat. By the time all nine of us had loaded in our dive boat, their dive boat had radioed that they were on their way.

I don't know the lost diver or her husband. But I can attest that the diver could have vanished very quickly that day - in a matter of seconds if she was caught in a down current like we experienced. My dive instructor was only 20-30 feet above us and was experiencing no current at all, while I was down below him doing everything I could to stop my rapid descent. If the lost diver panicked or didn't remember her training/equipment, she could have easily been swept down and out of sight. Keep in mind, too, that visibility was not the best - also as a result of the swirling water.

At the top, our DM called it "tornado currents" and said that in 9 years of daily diving in Cozumel, he had only seen currents like that day on one prior occasion.

My heart goes out to the guy that lost his wife. I can't imagine the emotions he must feel, including, I'm sure, responsibility for the accident. Having been in those waters that morning, I will cut the guy a break and extend him my condolences.

By the way, the lost diver was not the only tragedy of that day. Our DM informed us the next morning of another diver who died from injuries she suffered on a dive near ours - apparently, she inflated to ascend (presumably to get out of a down current) and failed to control her ascent to the surface once she got out of the current. She suffered either decompression or lung overexpansion and died the next day.

I am just grateful that my dive group got up and out safely.

Thanks for the info......also....

1) I think that will dispel any myths of moving to the wall to escape the current.
2) Surprised your DM hasn't seen this more often. It happens all the time up at Barracuda and has been reported around Santa Rosa this time of year every year for many years.
3) Did your dive briefing inform you what to do in the event of bad currents over that wall? I doubt theirs did.
4) Did they inquire of any divers if they all had sufficient air lift in their BC'S just in case? I doubt it.
5) Dive boats were everywhere looking for divers......That speaks volumes..........
6) I bet almost nobody on those boats ever thought about having a decent pair of fins before getting stuck in current like that.

Good thing you lived to tell about it, I bet it was a valuable learning experience.