Diver lost in Cozumel today

[WSOPFAN]

You don't need to contact the agency for a response--the answer is in the knowledge reviews for the OW course. The guidelines for an OW diver are to a 60 foot limit. That is, however, a guideline. It is not a rule, law, edict, etc. No agency has the power to enforce such a rule.

They can sure choose to punish one of their professional DM'S for knowingly and willingly endangering the lives of divers and being partly responsible for a divers death.......same for that dive shop.......they can sure remove that PADI designation...........

---------- Post added April 18th, 2012 at 01:07 PM ----------

Actually I just had PADI clear up a few things......

1) The 60ft limit is during training ONLY.
2) Any incident that is reported is investigated for any types of violations and action is taken accordingly.
3) The are no guidelines only standards and failure to follow them may result in disciplinary action.
4) Once a diver is certified it is up to the dive shop/DM to determine the qualifications for each diver.

So even though there is no actual standard for a depth limit other than the recreational limit of 130' it is very conceivable that safety standards would be in question for what occurred here, IMO of course. So was it automatically a violation of standards to allow novice divers to 80ft? Apparently not but it does not appear from a safety standpoint a dive at that location was a wise decision. I guess we will see how PADI feels.

 

[boulderjohn]

They can sure choose to punish one of their professional DM'S for knowingly and willingly endangering the lives of divers and being partly responsible for a divers death.......same for that dive shop.......they can sure remove that PADI designation...........

---------- Post added April 18th, 2012 at 01:07 PM ----------

Actually I just had PADI clear up a few things......

1) The 60ft limit is during training ONLY.
2) Any incident that is reported is investigated for any types of violations and action is taken accordingly.
3) The are no guidelines only standards and failure to follow them may result in disciplinary action.
4) Once a diver is certified it is up to the dive shop/DM to determine the qualifications for each diver.

So even though there is no actual standard for a depth limit other than the recreational limit of 130' it is very conceivable that safety standards would be in question for what occurred here, IMO of course. So was it automatically a violation of standards to allow novice divers to 80ft? Apparently not but it does not appear from a safety standpoint a dive at that location was a wise decision. I guess we will see how PADI feels.

When they talk about that limit and standards, they are referring directly to the OW course. If an instructor takes a student deeper than 60 feet during an OW certification dive, it is a standards violation, and the instructor can and should be reported. There are actually no standards (using that term) for what happens during a diver's diving experience. The diver is expected to use good judgment regarding how well his or her training has prepared him or her for an upcoming dive. I personally know an OW certified diver who has completed thousands of dives and used to own a dive shop. She goes well below 60 feet regularly.

 

[AggieDiver]

Actually I just had PADI clear up a few things......

1) The 60ft limit is during training ONLY.

I had never heard that before. Is that a recent change? Because when I was doing my OW, that was what they were using to sell people on AOW. "If you don't do AOW, you are limited to 60'." I always thought the 60' limit was kind of a silly distinction to pick, but that is the first time I heard it to be during training only. Again, everything is a "guideline" when you deal with a voluntary certification program and voluntary certification requirements at operators.

John, I don't necessarily disagree with you all that much, but I think PADI is straddling a very fine line with providing a list of approved shops and giving places 5 stars or whatever ratings. If they are going to do that, it implies that they believe the shop will follow safe practices. It is hard to say you are going to approve the shop or give it a rating without the assumption by the diver that PADI has also approved the policies and practices.

 

[WSOPFAN]

I had never heard that before. Is that a recent change? Because when I was doing my OW, that was what they were using to sell people on AOW. "If you don't do AOW, you are limited to 60'." I always thought the 60' limit was kind of a silly distinction to pick, but that is the first time I heard it to be during training only. Again, everything is a "guideline" when you deal with a voluntary certification program and voluntary certification requirements at operators.

What he was saying is that 60 ft is the standard that can't be violated during training however after you have your "C" card it is up to any dive shop/DM to determine if you are qualified to go deeper. If there is an accident and the diver was very experienced with hundreds of dives I doubt it would be held against any shop or DM for letting that diver go deep without an advanced certification. If they let a novice diver do the same and an accident or death occurs I bet they will be held accountable.

 

[diverrex]

Fortunately there are really not many scuba deaths for the case law to be well defined. Most scuba deaths in the US occur in California and Florida where a DM is generally not in the water and divers are on their own. Good luck figuring out case law at most foreign dive locations.

 

[AggieDiver]

What he was saying is that 60 ft is the standard that can't be violated during training however after you have your "C" card it is up to any dive shop/DM to determine if you are qualified to go deeper. If there is an accident and the diver was very experienced with hundreds of dives I doubt it would be held against any shop or DM for letting that diver go deep without an advanced certification. If they let a novice diver do the same and an accident or death occurs I bet they will be held accountable.

That is pretty vague. It puts alot of pressure on the shop to diagnose the difference between novice divers and experienced divers. And number of dives is often no help at all. I have seen divers with hundreds of dives floundering all over the reef in ways I knew better than to do as a brand new novice. I kind of wish they would get away from the OW/AOW pattern and instead have a kind of intermediate certification step, where after X number of dives, you could go do a checkout dive with an instructor and if you demonstrated adequate skill, you are given some notation on your C-Card that designates non-novice skill levels. It would emphasize to the divers that the OW is a beginner certification, without forcing people to pay alot of money to go through an AOW class.

 

[flots am]

John, I don't necessarily disagree with you all that much, but I think PADI is straddling a very fine line with providing a list of approved shops and giving places 5 stars or whatever ratings. If they are going to do that, it implies that they believe the shop will follow safe practices. It is hard to say you are going to approve the shop or give it a rating without the assumption by the diver that PADI has also approved the policies and practices.

This is going to surprise a lot of people, but "5 Stars" is a marketing term and not a rating. Use of the term misleads consumers into thinking it's a rating, since the same "stars" are used to rate movies, auto-crash tests, quality of consumer items and all sorts of other things, however this isn't true in the case of PADI.

"5 Stars" signifies only that the shop teaches PADI classes exclusively, and meets some other requirements mostly relating to appearance and marketing, but it is not a quality rating, since it's not possible to have 1, 2, 3 or 4 stars.

flots.

 

[Valwood1]

The real issue is whether the dive shop takes the time to inquire into a diver's skill level and experience before leaving the dock -- maybe, that inquiry was a pre-arrival form completed by the diver, or maybe it's looking at log books when the diver checks in, or maybe it's talking to the diver and getting a feel for his/her capabilities or lack thereof, and maybe in some cases even dividing the divers into experienced and less-experienced groups at a particular site, or sending them to different sites, or putting more DMs in the water with less-experienced groups.. My experience is that the good dive shops (anywhere in the world) do that, and plan dives accordingly. while those steps might lead to a pretty subjective judgment in most cases, they are a lot better than asking no questions.

As someone said, a diver can always lie about his/her experience or skills. Short of requiring a simple check-out dive, which may not be too thrilling for the truly experienced and skillful, I don't know any way to overcome problems created by a diver who lies or exaggerates skills. etc., or just has no common sense. I bet that most of us have seen such divers.

 

[nimoh]

That is pretty vague. It puts alot of pressure on the shop to diagnose the difference between novice divers and experienced divers. And number of dives is often no help at all. I have seen divers with hundreds of dives floundering all over the reef in ways I knew better than to do as a brand new novice. I kind of wish they would get away from the OW/AOW pattern and instead have a kind of intermediate certification step, where after X number of dives, you could go do a checkout dive with an instructor and if you demonstrated adequate skill, you are given some notation on your C-Card that designates non-novice skill levels. It would emphasize to the divers that the OW is a beginner certification, without forcing people to pay alot of money to go through an AOW class.

My interpretation is a little different.

I think we all agree that the PADI standard depth limit is 60' during training. However, once certified, PADI recommends to the new diver that they don't go below 60' until they take AOW or get comfortable making 60' dives, before going further.

PADI then goes on to say that AOW divers should not go below 100' until they have a deep diver specialty, or get comfortable making 100' dives. And finally, a hard stop at 130. PADI OW/AOW divers are not certified to go deeper than 130', and expects the shops to enforce this, but has no ability to enforce it.

The difference IMHO, is that it is up to the OW diver, not the shop to determine if they are ready to make an 80' dive.

The shop however, may have made a poor judgement call in allowing it, but they in no way violated PADI standards.

 

[Mike]

Doesn't matter how many times you all want to go round and round and round on the finger pointing and rules, regulations, standards, guidelines etc... cry to PADI or anything else.

A certified diver has been certified to dive. It's up to them to provide for their own safety. Beat it into your little heads, you can argue all you want, but that's where the rubber meets the road. If a dive master gives you a dive briefing you don't feel comfortable doing, it's up to you to open your little mouth and be heard. If you chose to shut up before the dive, shut up after it then and reap the consequences that you accepted like a big boy before you splashed in. Dive masters aren't there to pass out baa-baas and check if you doodied in your wet suit and need a change.