Diver Training: Kick-up the intensity, or not?

[Abdullah]

... it would have been more realistic to the scuba environment to do the swim with mask and fins on ... because as a scuba diver who might someday find himself caught offshore in those conditions and facing a long swim, I sure as hell ain't taking them off ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Once again, you seem to have missed my point that a 1000 meter swim with scuba kit in DCBC's course is not really a hardship or excessive.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Once again, you seem to have missed my point that a 1000 meter swim with scuba kit in DCBC's course is not really a hardship or excessive.

Once again you seem to have missed the fact that I said that two days ago ... twice, in replies 83 and 90. How you can say I missed the point is odd, because you quoted me saying so in one of your previous responses.

But it is you who are missing the point ... which is that it has nothing to do with hardship, it has to do with relevance.

We weren't talking about DCBC's surface swim ... we were talking about something you wrote ...

FWIW, I recall swimming 800 yards with no gear for the PADI DM course in 2-3 foot swells.

You specified an 800 yard "no gear" swim in ocean conditions. No scuba diver will ever have to do a "no gear" swim in open ocean in a real emergency, unless they're stupid enough to first ditch perfectly usable gear ... fins and mask at a minimum ... so what's the point in requiring that exercise?

I'm not interested in making students do things simply for the sake of proving they can do it ... if it adds no value to the purpose of the class, it's a pointless exercise.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Abdullah]

Once again you seem to have missed the fact that I said that two days ago ... twice, in replies 83 and 90. How you can say I missed the point is odd, because you quoted me saying so in one of your previous responses.

But it is you who are missing the point ... which is that it has nothing to do with hardship, it has to do with relevance.

We weren't talking about DCBC's surface swim ... we were talking about something you wrote ...



You specified an 800 yard "no gear" swim in ocean conditions. No scuba diver will ever have to do a "no gear" swim in open ocean in a real emergency, unless they're stupid enough to first ditch perfectly usable gear ... fins and mask at a minimum ... so what's the point in requiring that exercise?

I'm not interested in making students do things simply for the sake of proving they can do it ... if it adds no value to the purpose of the class, it's a pointless exercise.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Hmm... You're either trolling me, or you're one of those people who would complain about being hung with a used rope.

 

[DCBC]

You specified an 800 yard "no gear" swim in ocean conditions. No scuba diver will ever have to do a "no gear" swim in open ocean in a real emergency, unless they're stupid enough to first ditch perfectly usable gear ... fins and mask at a minimum ... so what's the point in requiring that exercise?

I'm not up on PADI's current requirements for DM certification. A distance swim without equipment use to be part of this program. If this is the case, must this be accomplished in confined water? If not, perhaps this was the reason for such the exercise...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm not up on PADI's current requirements for DM certification. A distance swim without equipment use to be part of this program. If this is the case, must this be accomplished in confined water? If not, perhaps this was the reason for such the exercise...

I'm not sure what PADI's requirement is ... but I doubt it's 800 yards in open water without equipment. As I pointed out a couple days ago, NAUI's swim test for dive pro, which occurs at the Assistant Instructor level, is 450 yards with no gear in confined water, and 900 yards with MFS in both confined and open water. The former has to be done in 10 minutes or less, and the latter has an 18 minute time limit.

There is a practical purpose to both of those exercises, both in terms of demonstrating watermanship and physical fitness.

I don't see a practical purpose to a no-gear open water swim for scuba divers ... which is probably why it's not a requirement.

In any case, I'm not sure how a dive professional's course requirements pertain to the topic of this thread, which was to discuss the benefits of increased requirements at the OW level.

I agree with your premise that a more stringent OW class would be beneficial. The question is how much more stringent is appropriate. Making a class hard just for the sake of saying you teach a hard class seems to me to be counterproductive. I want to turn out divers who are competent at scuba diving ... and while there is value in watermanship exercises, particularly in terms of demonstrating an appropriate level of fitness and in-water comfort, excessive swimming tests only serve to exclude people who are perfectly capable of learning and participating in scuba diving at the recreational level. I don't see the value in that.

As I said in an earlier reply, I think the test I took during my YMCA class ... 200 yard swim to get into the class and 300 yard swim to complete it ... was appropriate. I was even happy with NAUI's old standard of 200 yards, confined water, at the OW level. I think that's adequate for the typical scuba diver. I personally think NAUI's current standard of "at least 15 continuous stroke cycles", if applied minimally, is adequate to demonstrate that someone won't drown in a pool, but does little to demonstrate either competence or confidence in someone's in-water abilities or their overall physical fitness to dive. So I require my students to do the 200 yards ... which adheres to the standard and satisfies me that they'll be physically competent to perform as scuba divers in our local environment. Anything beyond that is, to my concern, overkill at the OW level.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

In any case, I'm not sure how a dive professional's course requirements pertain to the topic of this thread, which was to discuss the benefits of increased requirements at the OW level.

Actually Bob, I used my OW program as an example, but the OP is entitled "Diver Training: Kick-up the intensity, or not?" My intention was to discuss the perceived value of more intensive training at each level of the training process and not just OW. I've run programs from basic to technical instructor; my general philosophy of increased intensity is the same in each.

...I personally think NAUI's current standard of "at least 15 continuous stroke cycles" is adequate to demonstrate that someone won't drown in a pool, but does little to demonstrate either competence or confidence in someone's in-water abilities or their overall physical fitness to dive. So I require my students to do the 200 yards ... which adheres to the standard and satisfies me that they'll be physically competent to perform as scuba divers in our local environment.

I agree with your assessment that NAUI (and any Agency with similar requirements) is inadequate for many diving environments. NAUI does however allow you to increase the distance (and other aspects) that are required for certification, which not all Agencies allow. Without starting another discussion on this point, I do feel that this is noteworthy. What is required of the Student to dive safely in the local conditions, should take precedence over Minimum Standards.

 

[Peter Guy]

Bob -- if I'm reading the PADI DM water skills requirements correctly, they are:

a. 400 yard swim (open or confined water) no "swimming aids"

b. 15 minute tread (open or confined water)

c. 800 yard Mask/Snorkel/Fin "swim" with no use of arms (open or confined water)

d. 100 yard tired diver tow, full gear for both tower and towee (open or confined water)

The "swims" are all timed and points given for various times. Along with the gear exchange (done in confined water only), the total points must be "X"

 

[RJP]

You specified an 800 yard "no gear" swim in ocean conditions. No scuba diver will ever have to do a "no gear" swim in open ocean in a real emergency, unless they're stupid enough to first ditch perfectly usable gear ... fins and mask at a minimum ... so what's the point in requiring that exercise?

I'm assuming he meant "no scuba unit" rather than "bathing suit only" as the 800yd swim for PADI DM specifies mask/fins/snorkel.