Diver Training: Kick-up the intensity, or not?

[MXGratefulDiver]

It ain't much like drift diving in Cozumel.

... but that's more the type of diving most people do ... so why would they ever need to be able to do a 1000 yard swim in 4-5 foot seas?

Divers need to be trained for the conditions in which they anticipate they'll be diving.

One of the reasons why topics like this one invariably fall down a rathole is because of the differences in our environment and how we relate to what we're exposed to.

Kinda reminds me of a local joke about asking second graders to name the four seasons. Kids in Seattle will say "baseball season, soccer season, football season and skiing season". Kids living out on the Olympic coast will say "hunting season, salmon season, halibut season and tourist season".

While I do believe that most divers would benefit from more emphasis on better in-water skills prior to learning how to scuba dive, I just don't see the requirements outlined in the OP to be of benefit to all but a small percentage of divers worldwide who would ever dive in conditions that would demand that kind of physical conditioning.

I'm pretty certain I wouldn't be able to pass that swim test. I'm even more certain I'm not the least bit interested in finding out ... or that it has any bearing at all on my abilities as a scuba diver ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Diving in 4-5 ft seas... LOL... That is not really a big deal to dive in those conditions. I never hopped into this thread and said that a very rigorous training program would be necessary or popular or even economically practical. However, I can't seem to bite my tongue when an instructor equates the physical challenges of driving a modern automobile to scuba diving in frigid ocean waters.

when I took the NAUI Instructor watermanship test in 1978, I thought it was a little over the top. I think I was the only one who passed in my class and I had swam in high school. I thought the swim requirement was too fast, I am sure they have relaxed it by now. I'm not much of a swimmer now without fins, but I can still bang out 1,000 yards with MFS without too much trouble.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Diving in 4-5 ft seas... LOL... That is not really a big deal to dive in those conditions. I never hopped into this thread and said that a very rigorous training program would be necessary or popular or even economically practical. However, I can't seem to bite my tongue when an instructor equates the physical challenges of driving a modern automobile to scuba diving in frigid ocean waters.

when I took the NAUI Instructor watermanship test in 1978, I thought it was a little over the top. I think I was the only one who passed in my class and I had swam in high school. I thought the swim requirement was too fast, I am sure they have relaxed it by now. I'm not much of a swimmer now without fins, but I can still bang out 1,000 yards with MFS without too much trouble.

I don't see any MFS spec in the OP's 1000 yard swim ... I took it to mean exactly what it says ... swim. 1000 yards with mask, fins & snorkel isn't that difficult. However, I still don't see how that helps someone be a better scuba diver unless you're diving someplace where you're going to be anticipating having to go a half-mile or against a heavy current in order to get out of the water.

FWIW - NAUI's instructor watermanship test required a 450 yard swim and 800 yards with MFS when I took it in 2004. That's reasonable for an instructor. For entry-level, I found the YMCA's requirements of a 300 yard surface swim, 50 foot underwater swim and 15 minute survival swim to be reasonable and adequate to judge someone's fitness to dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Edward3c]

Please clarify the exercise--- Did you mean doff & don full scuba gear in 12'? If just mask, fins, snorkel, weight belt, then you were holding your breath the whole time while donning belt, fins, mask--clearing mask with whatever breath you were holding, then ascending with pretty empty lungs? "Clearing snorkel prior to surfacing"--how do you do that?--Oh, maybe you just mean clearing it while on the surface but with head underwater?
I'm not criticizing, just probably interpreting you wrong. I've done a similar excercise with full scuba equipment.

dumpsterDiver: Where were those rocks you jumped off in NS?

Back in the dark old days I did the full snorkel kit retrieval where it was expected students would surface with all kit fitted, no water in the mask and be able to breath via the snorkel without taking an additional breath to purge it. The actual standard was to retrieve one item at a time and fit on the surface, but the Diving Officer thought that was to easy.

Could I do it today? Do I want to?

Today I teach diving to be fun.

 

[Bubblehead628]

I too thought the 1000 meter swim was without gear at first. My swim earlier this week was swim suit only (its Florida 70 degrees), no buoyancy added and it was hard in washing machine conditions. However, the OP did clarify that the 1000 meter swim was with full gear and a team effort (if someone tired out). Swimming with full gear in those conditions has its own challenges and IMHO some practicality. I’ve done some long surface swims because I wasn’t paying attention to where I was and it wasn’t fun at all.

 

[DeepSeaDan]

Please clarify the exercise--- Did you mean doff & don full scuba gear in 12'? If just mask, fins, snorkel, weight belt, then you were holding your breath the whole time while donning belt, fins, mask--clearing mask with whatever breath you were holding, then ascending with pretty empty lungs? "Clearing snorkel prior to surfacing"--how do you do that?--Oh, maybe you just mean clearing it while on the surface but with head underwater?
I'm not criticizing, just probably interpreting you wrong. I've done a similar excercise with full scuba equipment.

Start at the surface wearing mask, fins, snorkel & wt. belt ( I believe I had 4 lbs. on the belt ), surface dive to the bottom ( I chose a "feet-first" surface dive ). Settle on your rump, remove the fins ( insure they are the "non-floating" variety! ) & place on the bottom, remove the mask/snorkel & place on the fins, remove the wt. belt & drape over the fins. Gain your feet & make for the surface. I think we had about :1 to rest & ready for the donning, then back to the bottom - don the mask/snorkel & clear the mask, don the wt. belt, don the fins, perform a proper ascent & displace-clear the snorkel ( this was a blessing as I had little air left to "blast-clear" the snorkel! ) - all "in control" ( no rocketing to the surface & "trident-submarining" out of the water, mask askew, sputtering & gasping etc., etc. ).

Though I achieved this some 39 years ago ( at 14 ), I still remember every detail of it because it took me umpteen attempts to do it competently. When I finally got it right, I remember whooping aloud with joy at the realization that I could finally experience my "Mike Nelson Moment" that I had dreamed of since I was a "kid."

Priceless!

Regards,
DSD

 

[DCBC]

Kind of goes with the theme of the thread though, which is "my OW course is harder than yours so I make better divers"

No, it's a realization that with more time dedicated to diver training, students can attain a higher level of skill than if less time was alloted to the process.

The problem with classes like this is that they are teaching very little and testing a lot.

And this is based upon you're intimate personal knowledge of this training program? How can you test someone on subject material they haven't covered in the first place? You seem quick to criticize...

...An instructor who makes students take more time to 'learn' to do something than it would take them to learn to do it by themselves is not actually accomplishing a positive.

More time is needed if the student is to learn more material. Is this concept difficult for you?

An instructor who does not see his job as helping students reach their goals much more efficiently is not really getting what teaching is about; they are just acting as gatekeepers, keeping people away from stuff.

I would be very interested in knowing how you're aware what a diver 'needs to know' to dive the North Atlantic. Instructors who "keep people away from stuff," are those who teach the minimum and ask the Student to return for a number of other courses to learn anything more ($$$). Even then, there is no guarantee that the information will ever be taught.

 

[Bob DBF]

... but that's more the type of diving most people do ... so why would they ever need to be able to do a 1000 yard swim in 4-5 foot seas.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

NOAA Marine Forcast:
Saturday: NW wind around 14 kt. Partly sunny. Mixed swell...NW 5 to 7 ft and SW 2 ft. Wind waves around 2 ft.

Going to be a bit choppy, but I will be out there to check if they are lying, if not, a 500+ yard out then dive and the same swim back. There is another spot that is 1000+ yards each way but the first part of the swim is protected. Shore diving can be fun, even for a fat old man.



Bob
-------------------------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

 

[DCBC]

... those who clear the hurdles make them think they are better prepared to handle ocean surface swimming in the worst ocean conditions.

That's incorrect. Because the Student has had the experience of doing a surface swim of moderate length in a 4 foot swell (with and against the current) for example, they have a better idea of what is required of themselves if the swell is larger. They have come to know their personal parameters. I believe that training should help the student identify his 'personal safe diving envelope,' so they will clearly understand when a situation would present a hazard.

---------- Post added May 15th, 2013 at 10:54 AM ----------

...DCBC, the program you conduct is very similar to my entry level NAUI program back in 1974. ...In today's hurry-up world of insta-gratification, I fear that much effort translates into "too much effort."

Yes, there have been a few posters that have made similar comments. As to "today's hurry-up world of insta-gratification," I agree; I think it's the same philosophy that rules-out changing the channel on the television unless the remote control is within arm's reach.

---------- Post added May 15th, 2013 at 11:02 AM ----------

... Divers need to be trained for the conditions in which they anticipate they'll be diving. ... or that it has any bearing at all on my abilities as a scuba diver ...

I agree Bob. It may not have any bearing on your abilities as a scuba diver where you choose to dive. It does however have a direct bearing in other diving locations.

---------- Post added May 15th, 2013 at 11:05 AM ----------

I don't see any MFS spec in the OP's 1000 yard swim ... I took it to mean exactly what it says ... swim.

Bob I've clarified this more than once. It involves a 1000M surface swim (full scuba equipment).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Start at the surface wearing mask, fins, snorkel & wt. belt ( I believe I had 4 lbs. on the belt ), surface dive to the bottom ( I chose a "feet-first" surface dive ). Settle on your rump, remove the fins ( insure they are the "non-floating" variety! ) & place on the bottom, remove the mask/snorkel & place on the fins, remove the wt. belt & drape over the fins. Gain your feet & make for the surface. I think we had about :1 to rest & ready for the donning, then back to the bottom - don the mask/snorkel & clear the mask, don the wt. belt, don the fins, perform a proper ascent & displace-clear the snorkel ( this was a blessing as I had little air left to "blast-clear" the snorkel! ) - all "in control" ( no rocketing to the surface & "trident-submarining" out of the water, mask askew, sputtering & gasping etc., etc. ).

Though I achieved this some 39 years ago ( at 14 ), I still remember every detail of it because it took me umpteen attempts to do it competently. When I finally got it right, I remember whooping aloud with joy at the realization that I could finally experience my "Mike Nelson Moment" that I had dreamed of since I was a "kid."

Priceless!

Regards,
DSD

Skin ditch & recovery. I've done it twice as a class requirement ... 2001, as part of my YMCA OW class, and again in 2004 as part of my NAUI Instructor training. The point of the exercise is to teach you how to remain calm during an in-water emergency. If you don't remain calm and do everything methodically, it's really hard. If you stay calm, and control your motions and emotions, it's not very difficult at all. It's more a mental exercise than a physical one.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added May 15th, 2013 at 07:26 AM ----------

Bob I've clarified this more than once. It involves a 1000M surface swim (full scuba equipment).

I missed the clarification. Surface swims in full scuba equipment ain't any big whoop ... you just inflate your BCD, lay back and kick. Some of my friends in SoCal do long surface swims routinely ... Deadman's Reef off Crescent Beach in Laguna comes immediately to mind ... and that was after a quarter-mile hike in full kit from the car to the beach. Up here in Puget Sound, long surface swims are normal ... although rarely a half-mile. I'll be going to a dive site on Sunday that approaches that for some ... but (a) I'll be using a scooter, and (b) our definition of "surf" is when the ferry goes by ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)