Dives and dive time

[Chris12day]

When a DM motions that I should ascend and skip the safety stop. I will signal the DM or dive leader and take my decompression stop. Period. If they yell at me, so what!

I will not skip a safety stop unless I am rescuing another diver AND the I am not in decompression limits. If I have an unconscience diver and am required to take a decompression stop, I will send diver to the surface from my decompression stop and take my safety stop. Once my stop has been completed, I would recover the unconscience diver if the surface personel had not and resume any rescue procedures.

If the boat has an emergency recall, I will still take a safety stop! I am personally responsible for my own safety, not the dive guide or the boat. The boat already has an emergency, it does not need multiple emergencies.

Safe Diving

 

[Elvistheking]

OK a number of points both for and against.
1. The safety stop: if your computer is not showing MANDATORY stops then the safety stop is optional, you should do it but you don't NEED to do it.
2. However if I had decided for whatever reason that I was doing a stop, deco, safety or otherwise and some one told me up now UNLESS there was a good reason I would do the stop, deco is MY responsibility, if any DM tried what they did with you I'd be given them a 1 fingered signal.
3. Equally depending on the situation I would even blow off even some MANDATORY deco, if as outlined in someof the above posts above I was dealing with a casualty, I could see that the weather was deteriorating badly or for some other GOOD reason, but it would be a risk assessment based upon how much mandatory deco, the conditions of the dive (water temp, current,etc.), an assessment of how I felt (cold, tried, etc.), the availability of O2 on the boat and the likely response time for evac. to the pot if needed, this however would be a Judgement call and I would feel no obligation to do so and neither should you (see point 2).

In conclusion you should be a thinking diver and make your own *informed* decisions, unless the DM had already agreed to be the one to push your wheelchair he has very little say in the matter!

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Sorry, still need more input!

What was the "planned max depth/profile" of the first dive? Did the briefings mention anything about not spending the majority of the dive deep?

You mention a "current line," were these drift dives or was the boat moored/anchored? How deep was the guide during the last 5 minutes of the dive?

Did you spend time deeper than the guide on the first dive? Did your buddy spend time deeper than the guide on the first dive? Did the briefing mention "not" to spend time deeper than the guide?

Both dives were 45 minutes long; did the briefings mention that the dives would be 45 minutes long? Sounds like they kept to a "schedule" consistent with needing to get back "on time" for the next trip.

Do you know what brand/model computer the guide was using? What brand/model your buddy was using? What brand/model are you using?

I have more questions but that's good for starters. With regards to the "diving since I was 6 years old" comment; the way you typed it that was not said by your guide, you do not mention any problems with anybody that guide was guiding and also the way you typed it that guide never claimed to be "certified" at age 6.

In a nutshell, I have seen many vacation divers "not hear" more than half the words spoken in the various briefings on a dive trip. To comprehend plans it is advisable to listen closely to the plans and ask questions in advance if comprehension is compromised.

 

[TSandM]

If the guide had made the statement, "When I tell you to get out of the water, you have to get out NOW," I would have asked him why. If there were conditions that really REQUIRED that the group surface and be picked up simultaneously (very strong currents and rough water) then I would plan my dive so that I would be prepared to surface when told. By going deeper than the agreed profile for the second dive, you added to your nitrogen loading, and although a safety stop may have been suggested or even "required" for the second dive at the original depth, it would be less important (assuming it's important at all, which is a matter for argument).

Safety stops, as has been discussed repeatedly on SB, are not mandatory decompression stops -- or at least, they aren't until you get into the "mandatory safety stop" area. And a lot of us think that, once you call something "mandatory", you are out of "no deco" diving Thalassamania often reminds us that they were introduced to try to control ascent rates in the shallows (but they often don't do that, because people spend their three minutes at 15 feet and then take 10 seconds to get to the surface). Although doing more shallow decompression is probably always beneficial (or at worst, not harmful), if you have remained within your no-deco limits, it isn't critical.

That said, I dive my own ascent profiles, and nobody is going to get me to change them UNLESS they give me a very good reason to do it. If they tell me I have to be on the surface in 45 minutes, I'll plan my dive so that I can do the ascent I want to do and be on the surface at that time, because it is rude to ignore the rules. But if no time limit has been set, AND no one has explained to me why I have to surface with the group, I'm going to do my in-water deco that I want to do. If someone gets in my face about it, I would do as you did, and discuss the matter with the owner/manager, and not return to that dive operation.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

A quick "piss off" to the DM would be in order as well.

And what was your own dive plan? When the DM gave the briefing you and your buddy should have been making a plan that would take into account the guidelines you were given. Then you should have set up a contingeny plan(s) for more depth, time, etc. Most computers can do this but for me it is quicker with tables and a slate to note the times, depths, turn pressures, etc. Following this when you lost the guide, why didn't you switch to your contingency plan and finish the dive.

Did the DM have a gun to make you get out of the water? If not and condtions were not such that it was necessary- screw em. One thing that needs to come out here as well is the name of the op. they should have an opportunity to reply and tell their side of the story. Another reason is to warn anyone who may be using them in the future, if these things are indeed true, so that they can avoid an outfit like this.

The biggest reason I see from many posts and talking to a lot of divers for this happening is the ops assume that the divers are stupid, poorly trained sheep. Therefore they can dictate unsafe profiles, too short SI's, and every aspect of the plan because they know no one will say anything. If the whole boat were to say wait a minute this is a BS plan we will not do that, the ops would be forced to start serving the divers instead of themselves. And I personally know of one instance where a man would not have died had the people on the boat spoke up.

The op was not totally responsible for this CF. The divers on the boat had a hand in it by consenting to be treated like sheep.

 

[BoltSnap]

A quick "piss off" to the DM would be in order as well.

That would have been my reaction too based on the OP side of the story and based on the facts presented so far (one finger salute).

We don't know the other side of the story however. Dive leaders should treat their customers as adults not children (I wouldn't treat children with this attitude either).

From a business and customer service point of view, the DM and boat operator's behavior leaves lots to be desired. As a businessman whose livelihood depends on happy customers, I'd have had much more professional and courteous attitude with my clients but, again, we don't have the full story thus far.

 

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

When I book dives, one of the first questions I ask is how long will we be away and approximate profiles. An operator tells me that we have 2 dives planed and will be done in 2 hours, I start asking questions. Sounds like aggressive diving was planned.

As part of the briefing the DM or boat says that I have a max of 45 mins immersion time, I obey (its their boat, their rules). Similarly if there is a general recall (only happened to me once) I obey as soon as I can (which generally means no safety stop).

With the profiles mentioned above, you are outside of any NDL limits on dive tables and your computer was probably close to the edge as well, so a slow ascent and safety stop is probably called for. If it is an urgent recall, then the boat waits. If the plan was 45 mins immersion and you screwed up by overstaying or going too deep, the boat waits, and you apologize and offer the DM a beer that evening.

 

[BoltSnap]

When I book dives, one of the first questions I ask is how long will we be away and approximate profiles. An operator tells me that we have 2 dives planed and will be done in 2 hours, I start asking questions. Sounds like aggressive diving was planned.

As part of the briefing the DM or boat says that I have a max of 45 mins immersion time, I obey (its their boat, their rules). Similarly if there is a general recall (only happened to me once) I obey as soon as I can (which generally means no safety stop).

With the profiles mentioned above, you are outside of any NDL limits on dive tables and your computer was probably close to the edge as well, so a slow ascent and safety stop is probably called for. If it is an urgent recall, then the boat waits. If the plan was 45 mins immersion and you screwed up by overstaying or going too deep, the boat waits, and you apologize and offer the DM a beer that evening.

Agreed but it seems that the DM's reaction is inappropriate and exaggerated. Unless there is an extreme emergency, which it doesn't appear to be the case here, allowing divers to do 3 - 5 minute precautionary stop is prudent and mustn't be a cause for the gross overreaction on the part of the DM in this case. (We are still hearing a one sided story however).

 

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

Agreed but it seems that the DM's reaction is inappropriate and exaggerated. Unless there is an extreme emergency, which it doesn't appear to be the case here, allowing divers to do 3 - 5 minute precautionary stop is prudent and mustn't be a cause for the gross overreaction on the part of the DM in this case.

That is indeed true, DM pushing safe diving limits and having an over reaction seems to be part of the cause for this thread. In my experience recreational diving is a competitive entertainment industry, so a DM with an attitude doesn't last long. Still you get them and I have a few shops that I just don't dive with.

(We are still hearing a one sided story however).

What would Scubaboard be without an ability to speculatively invent the story to support our argument?

 

[Charlie99]

Unless there was some sort emergency where the boat had to transport someone back to the dock in a hurry, the proper signal to the DM was that you needed 1 minute more. Signal preferably given using the middle finger. Repeat signal as necessary.

I would hate to be in your situation, because there might indeed have been a legitimate reason/emergency that required everyone back onboard.