Diving effects on kids

[fins wake]

... your children are already certified scuba divers? The elder one is already diving to the limits of her certification?

She is also advanced open water certified with about 15 dives up to 70 ft.

I gather you're now thinking of deeper dives, up to 90-95 feet, with both children? (Correct me if I'm wrong?)

Some of the things we are considering may go to 90-95, but not more (flower gardens, cozumel, etc.)

Now, Red Seal also mentioned re. PADI limits (and his daughters, not your children) that

They both know their abilities and limitations, and among those, they know that the OW limitation is 60 feet, AOW 70 feet.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the PADI jr OW limit is 40 feet (12 metres), not 60 feet (18 metres). This will change automatically the day the junior diver turns 15. It is my understanding, however, that the PADI jr AOW limit is indeed 70 feet (21 metres).

With the exception of a very few training agencies (SDI springs to mind) most agencies world-wide are more restrictive than PADI when it comes to children and diving. It therefore seems odd that one should want to push beyond 70 feet for the 12-year-old, something no training agency will train for or advocate. As for the 10-year old, it's even more strange. To be honest, any dive operation worth it's mettle should take action if they saw you and your children dive at 95 feet ... it breaks all standards world-wide.

Sure, you may be impressed with your daughters' maturity and ability (isn't every parent?) but what's going to happen when something goes wrong at 95 fsw and one of them freaks out?

Most people in this thread have expressed this opinion and I concur. I think this is the core issue, not whether the risk of osteonecrosis or other ailments becomes larger at depth for growing children.

Personally, and having dived with pretty young children (11-12 years old) in my "dive group" in tropical waters, I feel 40 feet is ample for most kids, and they'll turn out to be superlative divers at 15-16 in any case. By that time they can more safely descend deeper by their own invocation and you'll have great buddies for many years to come ...

EDIT: Typos

 

[Frank in Jax]

Hi! I have a 14, 12 and 11 year old, so I have had similar concerns. I had read and read and read on this subject and could find no good answers, except lots of testimonials from folks who don't think kids should dive. I gave up on this and consulted my family physician, who is a diver. His opinion was simply that the only effects of concern pertained primarily to the kids' maturity, growth, and size. He advised that only the kids' parents were in a position to evaluate their maturity and that he felt the Padi requirements (40 feet for 10-11, 60 feet for 12-14 OA and 70 feet AOW) were sufficiently conservative and I should stick to them. (He was well-aware that other organizations don't certify younger divers). As far as repetitive dives, he felt the Junior depth limits avoided any problems associated with repetitive diving. He stated he was not a dive physician, but neither are most of the other folks offering opinions. If you find any reputable and good sources of recent information, please let me know. I do want to learn more about the subject. I hope this helps.

 

[redseal]

PADI limits are as quoted above by Frank in Jax, namely basic OW for 12-15 year olds is 60 feet, 70 for junior AOW (they must do a dive to 60-100 feet to qualify for the deep dive in AOW, yet their allowable maximum depth is 70 feet after that).

I will be attending DAN's Hyperbaric Medicine course in Raleigh in a couple of weeks. Hopefully I'll get a chance to ask one of the experts about the potential affects of depth/N2 on early adolescents. Let's be reasonable: none of us wants our children to be harmed. We (I) wouldn't take my girls diving if I felt that they weren't well trained. THEY know what they know, and they also know that they can call the dive if they don't feel comfortable AT ANY TIME (and they have).

TTFN

 

[DocVikingo]

Two articles that you may wish to read are:

The Minds and Bodies of Children -- are they really suited to scuba? By DocVikingo at ---->

http://www.undercurrent.org/UCnow/articles/Kids200109.shtml

Why I Do NOT Train Kids. By Larry "Harris" Taylor, Ph.D.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lpt/kids.htm

Best regards.

DocVikingo

 

[H2OHead]

DocVikingo once bubbled...
The Minds and Bodies of Children -- are they really suited to scuba? By DocVikingo at ---->

I’ll preface this post with “I’m a parent myself so save your flames for someone who isn’t qualified to make such statements and read on”. Naturally, this isn’t about your kid. It’s about someone else’s kid. Glad we got that clear first.

Finally, we get to the real issue. Are the kids physiologically capable of diving without harm to their developing bodies is a good question. The list of physiological factors goes on and on. Someone did mention PFO’s and I’m not quite sure what that has to do with anything. I may have a PFO and you might, and you over there might. Since 10% to 30% of the entire diving population doesn’t die from an air embolism, I’m not sure the PFO issue makes any sense. We could run the entire population through the cath lab or get you a TEE, but I doubt you’d enjoy the experience or that you would quit diving if you saw your defect.

What concerns me most is that we are taking kids diving at all. I don’t know how we define someone as being mentally mature enough to dive, but I’m almost certain that teens (and younger for some it seems) are ill equipped to perform the mental tasks associated with diving safe. We can teach any kid to “stay with me and never hold your breath”, but we also put a chimp in orbit. Neither task requires complex thought or critical thinking skills. It’s the fine attention to detail and discriminating decision making that we are giving them credit for, but which they do not yet possess. That’s not to say they aren’t good kids, want to dive, etc. Just that they are in a hard place at an awkward time and they don’t tend to use the best judgment.

Naturally there is going to be a 5 year old that has the mental capacity of a 30 year old and we all see 30 year old folks that think like 5 year olds. The former is extremely rare and should be considered the extreme exception and not the rule. I personally think the training agencies had to cave into family dollar pressure and allow kids to learn to dive in order to retain customers. Keep in mind this whole training and diving thing is a cash cow. For your LDS to tell parents, “no..sorry, but your kids aren’t smart enough or mature enough to dive” would be the last words right before the going out of business sale.

So, is it safe for your kid to dive? I don’t know, you tell me. Just remember that your relationship with your kid makes it fairly impossible for you to objectively measure such things. Getting a kid to do “tasks” like math on a dive planner, skills in a pool, and the like is hardly representative of critical thinking skills needed to survive in the “grow gills or die” environment of the ocean floor.

 

[The Chairman]

Just remember that your relationship with your kid makes it fairly impossible for you to objectively measure such things.

Amen brother!

 

[Dr Deco]

Dear Readers:

Old Enough To Dive

Regrettably, “old enough” is not an issue of decompression, and I usually confine myself to my area of acknowledged expertise. That does not mean, however, that I am devoid of opinions of other topics.

Age in diving can be debate the same as age in driving a motor vehicle. Some will argue that sixteen year olds simply do not have the maturity/experience to safely operate a vehicle in a consistent manner. They argue, with truth, that youths are easily distracted while talking with friends, especially those sitting in the rear seats. This is not necessarily different from talking on cell phones. Truth be known, I am not enamored of this latter practice either.

In a medical sense, it is not clear that there does not exist any danger associated with youth. Youngsters have not been diving long enough to tell. Thus, dangerous extrapolation is needed. The medical side of the house will answer what is known since the question was asked. More, or less, it cannot do.

Many activities are restricted on the basis of age. Among these are voting, motor vehicle operation, beverage alcohol, and tobacco use. [I personally believe that we would be better off if the last two were restricted to 65 and older.] Motor vehicle use should probably have an upper-age limitation (determined by an outside evaluator); this was illustrated in the California tragedy at the farmers’ market last week.

In diving, the one at risk is the diver. Motor vehicle operation puts others at risk and is debated with greater intensity.

My youngest child is 29 and a diver. None of my four children asked to dive before the age of eighteen, and I myself would have discouraged it for physiological reasons (imagined if not real).

The element of intense, surface interval exercise could be a problem with youth. They are not prone to “chill out” at topside. Rather many would rather engage in some vigorous activity. This could be a “nucleation field day” for these young folks. Since stress-assisted nucleation at the surface is not readily recognized by diving authorities as a very serious risk factor (except by those reading and believing this FORUM), the cause for this risk would be put down erroneously to “young age.” We would be led down the wrong path.

Dr Deco :doctor:

Readers, please note the next class in Decompression Physiology :grad:
http://wrigley.usc.edu/hyperbaric/advdeco.htm

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Texangal,

You queried the board regarding physiological effects of diving on children's growth, etc.

The replies you've received have expanded a bit beyond that narrow query. I hope you'll consider my input in the spirit in which its offered.

My sons were 16 and 15 when they were certified. I accompanied (but did not teach) when my own two sons were certified several years ago. As a former instructor I have witnessed on numerous occasions adults with fewer than 25 dives who reacted unwisely to perceived crises underwater. The same goes for my own kids, during their certification process.

The scariest part of the scenario you are describing, based on my own experiences, is the fact that it is you and your two children simultaneously. I have been there. Obviously, if the dive goes perfectly smoothly, all three of you enjoy a wonderful experience. But not all dives go smoothly. Its only after you've been scared witless by one of them that you begin to see some of the drawbacks.

Consider a scenario where, due to a mouthpiece that splits, the child breathes in a mixture of air and water, turns to signal the adult, breathes in another of the same, and bolts. Or, they run into a stinging jellyfish, get stung on the face, and bolt. Kids are not predictable. They do not always do (1) as they've been instructed; and (2) what they understand before the dive that they should do. Another thing about diving with two kids together with a single adult is that they are not both paying attention to all elements around them at the same time. If you respond to the kid in crisis and accompany them to the surface, the other one is still down there. If your 10 year old gets hit with the problem, the 12 year old is still down there. But if its the 12 year old that gets tapped...at 70' or below..., and if you catch her on the way up and take her to the surface, the 10 year old is still down there alone.

Trust me on this, you won't have the time while responding to the first to ensure simultaneous comprehension and response by the second. You will not be a happy camper on the surface dealing with the 12 year old, while the 10 year old is still tooling around down below 70' in the flower gardens. Then, you can't leave the 12 year old on the surface alone either, to head back down and find the 10 year old to bring her up. Diving with two kids and one adult can result in having some hard decisions forced on you.

Diving with kids is wonderful when things work out well, and I've enjoyed some great times diving with my two kids. But I learned to buddy them up and cruise over the two of them, rather than try to dive as a team of three. And I learned that they had just as good a time in 20'-40' of water as deeper.

Until they get quit a bit older, I respectfully suggest that you think three times before you take the three of you together down to depths that deep. If something happens down there to one of the kids, your ability to respond to both of them simultaneously will be severely constrained. And you can never assume that "nothing will happen".

Doc

 

[blacknet]

Hello,

I know for me I was not ready to really dive untill early 20's. In highschool I did alot of reading about scuba and found it interesting. In college I took a scuba class that lasted the whole semester and I choose not to do my checkout dives because there was no good diving in the area. I have since then discovered/learned that being responsible enough to handle things like emergencies and the like underwater takes maturity.

Ed

 

[pasley]

I AM NOT A DOCTOR OR MEDICALLY TRAINED INDIVIDUAL OPINION ONLY

Someone did mention PFO’s and I’m not quite sure what that has to do with anything. I may have a PFO and you might, and you over there might. Since 10% to 30% of the entire diving population doesn’t die from an air embolism, I’m not sure the PFO issue makes any sense.

PFOs exist in everyone in the womb (I am told) but close shortly after birth ( as in months or even years) in most of the population (about 20-30% of the adult population has this condition). It is mentioned here because the PFO closes over a period of time and the probability is higher in younger children than it is in adults.

Now what does PFO have to do with diving? Since a portion of the blood flows directly form the body back into the body, and does not go through the lungs, you may (note May, they are still researching the connection) have a higher than normal susceptibility to DCI.

In addition just 2cc of bubbles in the wrong side of the heart (a higher risk with PFO since you have a hole connecting the bubble rich blood directly to that side of the heart without going through the filter of the lungs) results in death.

Therefore a PFO is a significant risk factor in diving and may be a higher risk factor for DCI. (If you have a PFO the medical types are positively paranoid about any bubbles in IV or intravenous injections). Since young children have a higher probability of a PFO it is a higher risk factor for children diving that the general adult population that should be considered.