“Duty of Care” when taking others on personal vessel, to dive

[tridacna]

Not much I can really do about eliminating the legal duty of care other than to just go out by myself and dive alone. Even then, if I got hurt or whacked, some greedy legal beagle would find some reason that I should sue myself for everything possible and then give him 40%.

If you die on your boat and some “greedy” lawyer convinces your next of kin to sue the boat manufacturer/equipment manufacturer/whoever has the best insurance for a big jackpot, are they “greedy” too? That’s how it happens…

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

If you die on your boat and some “greedy” lawyer convinces your next of kin to sue the boat manufacturer/equipment manufacturer/whoever has the best insurance for a big jackpot, are they “greedy” too?

If the boat manufacturer/equipment manufacturer/whoever has the best insurance for a big jackpot clearly had nothing to do with my demise...... then yes. Most lawyers have absolutely no interest in what is the truth or what is right or wrong. They simply want to win and get paid.

For example..... If I was seriously injured in a car accident where an Amazon delivery truck hit me and everything looked like it was Amazons fault.....and then I told my lawyer....... "hey, I was on the phone and not paying attention so this was really all my fault"......... What do you think the lawyer would do? He would tell me to STFU.

 

[SpeedyJ]

Yes.....tank and 1st are onboard. To be honest, I have not yet tried using it at depth, but have no reason to believe that it will breath any differently than any other "hanging" 2nd. If you've ever been to Little Cayman, all of their boats, once tied off with divers in the water have a long hose 2nd hanging at 15ft and it's connected to an onboard tank and a 1st stage. Not 100% O2...... I'm sure its 32% or air and it's there only if a diver at their SS is low on gas.

You make a good point that I should test it out.

Interestingly enough, I'll be back on Little Cayman in about 3 weeks so while there I plan to ask Reef Divers about this......and also will probably take a hit or two from their hanging 2nd to see how it breath's.

As you're going down the IWR rabbit hole, have a watch of the below:

Putting a bent diver in the water on O2 carries higher risk than a typical safety stop. Having a full face mask, and as is called out in the presentation, one that provides constant positive pressure relative to the surrounding environment, is key to reducing risk to the patient.

As the paper (David Doolette and Simon Mitchell) discussed in the above presentation states plainly in its abstract:

"The risk of IWR is not justified for treatment of mild symptoms likely to resolve spontaneously or for divers so functionally compromised that they would not be safe in the water. However, IWR conducted by properly trained and equipped divers may be justified for manifestations that are life or limb threatening where timely recompression is unavailable."​

​

Getting back to duty of care so as to not make this a thread hijack, putting a patient back in the water for recompression without a full face mask or other airway protection, without a safety diver, without a means of retrieving an unconscious diver, etc. etc. etc. could be argued to breach your duty of care / be negligent. The general consensus has been not to do it, Dr. Doolette and Dr. Mitchells paper is a starting point on when/why/how to do it correctly. If you don't have everything squared away and are making decisions by the seat of your pants, you're more likely to take the exit towards negligence than reasonable.

 

[tridacna]

If the boat manufacturer/equipment manufacturer/whoever has the best insurance for a big jackpot clearly had nothing to do with my demise...... then yes. Most lawyers have absolutely no interest in what is the truth or what is right or wrong. They simply want to win and get paid.

For example..... If I was seriously injured in a car accident where an Amazon delivery truck hit me and everything looked like it was Amazons fault.....and then I told my lawyer....... "hey, I was on the phone and not paying attention so this was really all my fault"......... What do you think the lawyer would do? He would tell me to STFU.

Nah. Easy to get phone records. Then you’re f’ed. And him too. Why are you retaining a lawyer anyhoo? You’re dead set against them

I think everyone likes winning and getting paid. My experience is that the people who malign attorneys are the first to sue when the opportunity presents itself. Money talks and all that.

 

[2airishuman]

46 CFR § 184.710 - First-aid kits.

www.law.cornell.edu

It refers in that text to a Vessel. Not sure how that is defined, so there is likely some minimum length associated.

That applies to inspected passenger vessels, specifically, vessels carrying more than six passengers for hire that are under 100 tons. See §175.110.

 

[2airishuman]

I wonder how many private boat owners carry liability insurance on their boats, and for those who do, how many policies exclude things like scuba diving from the boat.

I do, and it doesn't.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

As you're going down the IWR rabbit hole, have a watch of the below:

Putting a bent diver in the water on O2 carries higher risk than a typical safety stop. Having a full face mask, and as is called out in the presentation, one that provides constant positive pressure relative to the surrounding environment, is key to reducing risk to the patient.

As the paper (David Doolette and Simon Mitchell) discussed in the above presentation states plainly in its abstract:

"The risk of IWR is not justified for treatment of mild symptoms likely to resolve spontaneously or for divers so functionally compromised that they would not be safe in the water. However, IWR conducted by properly trained and equipped divers may be justified for manifestations that are life or limb threatening where timely recompression is unavailable."​

​

Getting back to duty of care so as to not make this a thread hijack, putting a patient back in the water for recompression without a full face mask or other airway protection, without a safety diver, without a means of retrieving an unconscious diver, etc. etc. etc. could be argued to breach your duty of care / be negligent. The general consensus has been not to do it, Dr. Doolette and Dr. Mitchells paper is a starting point on when/why/how to do it correctly. If you don't have everything squared away and are making decisions by the seat of your pants, you're more likely to take the exit towards negligence than reasonable.

View attachment 835219

Ok... let's say you are on my boat in the middle of nowhere in BC....and many hours from any other help....... and you just made a faster than normal ascent and/or blew a stop...... and you are fully concious and aware. Then what would you choose.

1) Your choice of multiple O2 delivery options from a healthy supply of O2....including the option of O2 at 15ft.

2) Sitting on the deck reading a copy of Dr Doolittles paper?

IWR does not always mean putting a "bent" diver back in the water. It can also be a cautionary measure.

 

[SpeedyJ]

Ok... let's say you are on my boat in the middle of nowhere in BC....and many hours from any other help....... and you just made a faster than normal ascent and/or blew a stop...... and you are fully concious and aware. Then what would you choose.

1) Your choice of multiple O2 delivery options from a healthy supply of O2....including the option of O2 at 15ft.

2) Sitting on the deck reading a copy of Dr Doolittles paper?

IWR does not always mean putting a "bent" diver back in the water. It can also be a cautionary measure.

If only we could watch the talk and read the paper ahead of time... to be prepared and not have to "sit on the deck reading a copy of Dr. Doolette's paper." And what we learn would change some of our decision making...

Nah, there's no way we'd do that... learning from experts is for chumps.

Instead, lets just complain about lawyers...

 

[Tassi Devil Diver]

Just don't be negligent, has worked well for me so far.

 

[lowwall]

IWR does not always mean putting a "bent" diver back in the water.

Yes it does by definition. The term IWR specifically refers to a treatment for a bent diver. Sending a non-symptomatic diver down back down after a questionable profile may be a good idea, but it's something other than IWR.

For example:

"In-water recompression (IWR) is defined as the practice of treating divers suffering from decompression illness (DCI) by recompression underwater after the onset of DCI symptoms."
- Pyle 1997 https://www.tecvault.t101.ro/In-water recompression.pdf