Embrace a New Double Hose Regulator

[oldmossback]

Will you have the budget to get CE certification, or at least get Dive Lab to test it?

I currently am not concerned with CE certification (certified Europe) as I plan to start with internet sales only, individuals shipped to. To ship to shops who sell in Europe requires that certification, not to individuals who buy from anywhere other than Europe on the net, at least to my understanding of the EU regulations.

Now that being said, at the start of my campaign I was contacted by some fellows whose shop is in the UAE. I offered them an exclusive distributorship for the Gulf region for xx amount of dollars. Haven't heard much from them since.They wanted a new brand but I am not sure they wanted to wait almost a year or more.
If someone wanted to acquire a distributorship I certainly would look into CE certification if they were effected by those regulations. Mostly it is a ton of paper work that the manufacturer fills out stating their product meets or exceeds European regulations.

Dive Lab will be contacted after one or two prototypes have been assembled and tested. I need to see if they will need more than one reg. But Dive Lab is in the original budget under testing.

I might add here that one of the users, a diver on this board (doublediver), of the MB Mk3 back in 2010 ran his through Dive Lab and received some very interesting results.........on para with the current (at the time) top Apek single hose he stated to me.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Sorry, but my experience tells me that a double hose OC reg that moves exhaust bubbles a couple of feet further away from a fish will not exactly allow "up close and personal" encounters. I have been close to fish on CCR and if there is an OC diver anywhere near me, the fish will scatter. If a photographer wants to get close, rebreather technology is there. It is probably the fastest growing segment of the industry, with the possible exception of sidemount. This new development seems to fly in that face of that and promote retro. No thanks.

kwinter, there are a couple of insights I can give you about a double hose regulator and fish behavior. I wear my double hose regulator low on my back, between my shoulder blades, but lower than most because I dive twin tanks a lot. This not only moves the bubble-producing part of an OC regulator a few feet away from the fish, but also places my body between the regulator/bubbles and the fish. Since I use an octopus with my Mossback Mk3, I have used that as a control and will show the results in a separate post (my Suunto dive log is on a different computer). What happens is that my body and the distance work to decrease the bubble disturbance that affects smaller fish. This disturbance is a result of the vibrations and noise of breathing that the regulator produces, and the fish pick up along their lateral lines. Because of this, I can get close to rather skittish fish with my double hose regulator.

I solo dive mostly freshwater rivers, and dive rather shallow, but in fairly swift currents. I have been following the red-sided shiner, and observing its mating habits for the last couple of decades. I have seen things in the rivers that a very few have seen, such as lamprey's mating.

Concerning rebreathers, I have been intrigued by their development over the last decade. I began this by investigating rebreather technology, and looking at rebreather accidents. I have worked in the safety profession, and in product safety, for over 35 years. I am now semi-retired, but keep my hand in safety issues such as Ebola, infection control, noise and hearing conservation, process safety management, etc. So I am pretty well grounded in safety to determine whether I would feel comfortable solo diving a rebreather to help in my underwater observations. I have concluded that I would not be comfortable doing that activity (solo rebreather diving). This paper will put some of that into context:

Results: The 181 recorded recreational rebreather deaths occurred at about 10 times the rate of deaths amongst open-circuitrecreational scuba divers. No particular brand or type of rebreather was over-represented. Closed-circuit rebreathers have a25-fold increased risk of component failure compared to a manifolded twin-cylinder open-circuit system. This risk can beoffset by carrying a redundant ‘bailout’ system. Two-thirds of fatal dives were associated with a high-risk dive or high-riskbehaviour. There are multiple points in the human-machine interface (HMI) during the use of rebreathers that can resultin errors that may lead to a fatality. Conclusions: While rebreathers have an intrinsically higher risk of mechanical failure as a result of their complexity, thiscan be offset by good design incorporating redundancy and by carrying adequate ‘bailout’ or alternative gas sources fordecompression in the event of a failure. Designs that minimize the chances of HMI errors and training that highlights thisarea may help to minimize fatalities.

http://www.dhmjournal.com/files/Fock...her_deaths.pdf

See post #133 for a further analysis of rebreather design I put into the rebreather forum here.

The double hose regulator satisfies my need to get close to small fish and other critters. Most defenders of rebreathers look at their capabilities and not at their liabilities (expense, complexity, failure rate, fatality rates). These defenders also have a huge financial investment and time investment already in rebreathers.

What I'm saying is that there is an alternative for those looking at rebreathers, and that further development of advanced designs in double hose regulators would benefit everyone.

SeaRat

 

[oldmossback]

While I wish you luck in your exciting endeavor, I think you're going to need a different slogan than "Buy my Double Hose, because a rebreather will kill you". What are the unique Features & Benefits of YOUR product & Technology ? What's DIFFERENT about YOUR product & Technology ?

Ok I am not quite sure of the meaning of your question. Different between rebreathers or between other Double Hose Regulators.

The difference between DHR's or single hose units and rebreathers has always been OC and CC......that is common knowledge......OC has no chemicals or electronics to depend on for life support.....granted there are some electronic pressure gages which are wireless but this is not something that the diver is toast if it craps out.......and the only thing in the air tanks is mother natures wonderful air or for those with a little money and time a mix of gases. Not so with a rebreather, something fails and if the diver is not aware, adios..........

Now, the difference between the Sea Wolf Mk5 and any other new double hose regulator is the IP plenum, non turbulent free flow 2nd stage, non torturous valves in the mouthpiece. This system provides a better, less resistant flow of air to the diver.

The can and mouthpiece will be molded of glass reinforced nylon..almost bullet resistant. The can opens with a threaded ring like a single hose second stage and the hoses are (for esthetics) inclosed at the horns, making for a clean design.

It also has a (I have been searching for a term that will not give away trade secrets) pulsed compressor that assists airflow under a diver work load. This will nearly or totally eliminate one of the draw backs to a double hose regulator, the difference in water pressure between the lungs and the regulator. How it is done is a trade secret for now.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Here is one of my double hose regulator setups, and I dive my own Para-Sea BC design (not available commercially). The regulator I'm using is my Mossback Mk3, which is my primary regulator.

Most likely, not a thing. Go to the VSS page on this and have a fun time. All 3 of those guys over there are promoting this idea at a donation cost of $125,000. The Argonaut is as good as a double hose can get.

There are more of us than that, and the Argonaut is not as good as it can get, as Luis is still refining it (according to his profile and the Kraken Blog on VDH). Nothing is "as good as it can get..." as there are always improvements to be made. I'm sure the Kraken is a very good regulator. The Sea Wolf Mk5 has some improvements that should prove interesting.

SeaRat

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Here's the dive log entry from June 10, 2014. The dive was at High Rocks on the Clackamas River, Oregon near Gladstone, Oregon. I've highlighted the small experiment I conducted using the Mossback Mk3 and my Calypso second stage octopus:

Dive Plan

Dive the twin 42s with the PJ tanks (twin 42s) and abserve aquatic life with the SeawiscopeEY.


Observations


I got into the water and swam across the channel across from the island. High Rocks water levels had dropped again since my last dive. I wanted to see whether the log that has been there for a number of years is still just below the island, but found no log. I went downstream across the current and under the rapid, which actually carried me quite fast toward the surface. Swimming head-down, I attained the bottom and driftedi with the current to deeper waters below the lifeguard stand. There I stayed on the bottom for a while, watching the sculpin. They are very territarial fish, and will challeng my gloved finger if I put it in front of them.


I did a little experiment with them, by watching very closely with my Mossback Mk3 double hose regulator, then switching to my octopus single hose regulator. As soon as I blew the bubbles (exhaled), the sculpin I was watching skedatled. It was immediate. So I tried the experiment twice more with two more sculpins. The second did not react to the single hose regulator's bubbles. The third hesitated, then left. So while not all the little sculpins were spooked, the first one definitely was.


I watched the bottom, and saw about five deep redds (nests for salmon eggs), then continued downstream. I got to a hole that was about 27 feet deep, which is deeper than I remember before. A lamprey eel was in a rock's eddie, and wedged against another rock. This one looked like it was spawned out, so I left it alone to die in peace. There was a carcus of a salmon, and several other dead lampreys too as I headed downstream.


I came under the shadow of the trail bridge above me, and knew I was getting close to the exit point. I looked at my gauge, and saw it was getting low, and so pulled the reserve rod. The tanks equalized at somewhere over 500 psig. This was an experiment too, as I wanted to see what the gauge graph looked like after I pulled the J-valve. It had been just under 300 psig, and then went up to over 500 psig, but this did not show up on the gauge, or the dive profile.


I started up to the surface when I knew I was near the right rocks, and looked up. There were two ducklings and a female duck on the surface. Slowly I surfaced beside them, and they looked at me and then climbed out of the water onto a rock. I went back down, and they entered the water again, so up I came beside them again. This time they swam downstream, and a goose with three goslings headed downstream too. I think I disturbed their nap.


When I exited, I was surprised at how easy it was with the twin 42s. They are much lighter than my twin 45s, and so getting back up to the car was much easier. I had another tank with my Scubair regulator waiting for a second dive.


Special Problems and Solutions


--This was my first dive with my Liberator dive mask after taking the corrective lenses out (LDS did it, actually--they were surprised I still had the original lenses). This black silicone mask works very well in current, and without the correction (especially the bifocals), it's much easier to walk on the rocks with the mask still on my face. The SeawiscopeEY fits this mask well, and works better without the corrections anyway. On the second dive, I dove "slick" without the SeawiscopeEY attachment to the mask.


--The Mossback Mk3 regulator is really nice to use, especially with the twin 42s as it sits in the ideal position between my shoulderblades. I have a USD Calypso octopus, and had it on a clip on my BC, but it kept coming out. So after trying unsuccessfully to tuck it into the octopus pocket (I had this designed into the Para-Sea BC) because of my gloved fingers, I simply looped it behind and between my legs. I read a hilarious account by Bill High of him putting a crab between his legs one time, with dire consequences, but the octopus worked well in this position. I should put it into the octopus pocket prior to the dive and without gloves (hard to feel velcro with gloves on).


--I got tangled in the float line again on the first dive, and could not get it loose. However, when I got into somewhat shallower water, and rolled an opposite direction, the tangle with my scuba came loose. I solved that problem on the second dive by not using the float.

I have done that experiment with the schools of red-sided shiners too, and with similar results that they stay closer to me with the double hose than with the single hose regulator.

SeaRat

 

[Fibonacci]

oldmossback was last seen:
Mar 25, 2018
Sea Wolf Mk5 Double Hose *DHR* Diving Regulator
US$2,100 of the US$125,000 goal and 3 backers

So whatever happened to the Sea Wolf MK5?
A quick patent search with SCUBA+Michael Story as inventor comes up blank...
Website still functional but appears inactive Sea Wolf Scuba Regulators

Seemed to have a few good features... at least on paper.

Now, the difference between the Sea Wolf Mk5 and any other new double hose regulator is the IP plenum, non turbulent free flow 2nd stage, non torturous valves in the mouthpiece. This system provides a better, less resistant flow of air to the diver.

This new regulator's readily seen basic features are an hydrodynamic shape, threaded ring locked can assembly (no small screws, clips or clamps to lose or break) and removable hose attachments for any 'after dive' draining as well as the new AILSS system (currently classified until patents approved) featuring a non turbulent flow 2nd stage; non turbulent air hoses; non torturous mouthpiece valving and the list goes on.)

It also has a... pulsed compressor that assists airflow under a diver work load.
This will nearly or totally eliminate one of the draw backs to a double hose regulator, the difference in water pressure between the lungs and the regulator.
How it is done is a trade secret for now.
​

Or did the Argonaut Kraken completely fill the recreational market demand for a 'new' double hose regulator with the Aqualung Mentor meeting military demand?

 

[The Ruttmeister]

Full disclosure, I have a Kraken on order and I work in hardware development.

oldmossback was last seen:


So whatever happened to the Sea Wolf MK5?...

snip

...did the Argonaut Kraken completely fill the recreational market demand for a 'new' double hose regulator with the Aqualung Mentor meeting military demand?

I think you are right. Why back a crowdfunding campaign when you can already buy something that scratches the itch? Sure, you will wait months between batches of Krakens, but its a product that actually exists.
I think people who are going to put down money for a double hose have a decent idea of just how hard it is to launch, manufacture and then actually support a product like a regulator. I wish Bryan over at VDH could quit his day job to just build regulators, but I totally respect that fact that he isn't willing to take that risk. More importantly, I'm willing to take the risk that he will still be in business in a few years and I will be able to get parts!

There might be a market for another double hose, but the demand is so small that a crowd-funding campaign, ahem, failed pretty hard. Normally a crowd-funding campaign runs with a big marketing push (which is more important than the actual product TBH), it doesn't seem like that happened for the Sea Wolf.

I'd love to see modern double hose regs in dive shops, but I don't think that's going to happen for a bunch of reasons.

 

[Fibonacci]

~snip~
I'd love to see modern double hose regs in dive shops, but I don't think that's going to happen for a bunch of reasons.

Keen to hear your opinions on why?
From what I can see there haven't been too many real advances in SCUBA regulator design in 20 years, the market seems absolutely saturated and open to a 'new' product line.
Diving a double hose in 2019 always causes a stir, particularly amongst photographers who can immediately appreciate the relative silence and lack of bubbles/exhalation pulse... very good for macro!
If a major manufacturer released a new (well designed... NOT another Aqualung Mistral II debacle) double hose reg on the market with full international dealer support I bet it would be a success.
Atomic Aquatics D3 Ti anyone?

 

[AfterDark]

1. The Mk3 introduced the low profile (thin) first stage because it didn't start out as a modification of the USD Titan first stage.
2. Quality of the design... Ask anybody who has one how well the Mk3 breathes... There are 18 of them out there. The Mk3 was a proof of concept prototype. And the reason it breathes so well is the patented IP plenum chamber.
3.The Mk5 Sea Wolf will have a super strong can and mouthpiece......advanced, reduced turbulent air flow system and a improved IP plenum chamber.
[FONT=&amp]4. Is there room for another double hose? Well shoot, is there room for another single hose on the market? How about room for another pickup truck or cell phone or wide screen TV? This is America and anyone who's afraid of a little competition should think bigger.

[/FONT]

As a regulator for 21st century does it come in DIN?

I've been using a DBL hose all summer for U/W photog. The fish come right up to my face plate like they can see their reflection. I think it's the forward pressure wave that precedes the bubbles that spook the fish. The DBL hose reduces that considerably.

 

[rhwestfall]

Kraken does!