FBI Collecting your Information

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Originally posted by funky__monks


I just love when people start quoting the Bill of Rights and try and adapt it into an argument.

Here's my questions for you.
  • Do you advertise yourself as a diver [e.g. stickers on your car, t-shirts, etc...]
  • Do you admit to being a diver in public?
  • Do you dive in public?

I think I'm safe in assuming that you do one of the above?

The 4th amendment does _not_ protect you from anything you knowingly expose to the public [1]. If you have done anything to make it known you are a diver in public [like... posting on this board], then you can't make any 4th amendment claims to privacy about anyone telling the FBI that you are a diver, as you have already made that information public.


[1] LEWIS v. UNITED STATES, 385 U.S. 206 (1966)

My personal health record is not a public matter. My LDS has a copy of my health record, which they supposedly can turn over to the feds without my consent and without a warrant. Isnt the 4th amendment supposed to protect me from that????
 
Originally posted by ScubyDoo
My personal health record is not a public matter.

Why is it that people choose to speak before they even research anything. Where is it said that the FBI is gathering, or that shops are turning over, medical records???

The Facts: The FBI is compiling a list of divers certified in the last 3 years. They are also collecting a list of students that have dropped out of dive courses in the last 3 years. They are paying special attention to those that received training in DPVs and Rebreathers. They are talking with dive shops to try and find leads on suspicious students. They are starting to focus on commercial and technical diving training facilities, as the threats they suspect involve tasks that will be difficult for the typical basic certified student.

Where in there is there an invasion of privacy? The only thing they are collecting is names, addresses and phone numbers.

Now, just because I like watching feathers get ruffled, try this on for size:




The Professional Association of Diving Instructors, which certifies about 65 percent of
the country's divers, has turned over its database of two million divers certified in the
last three years, spokesman Jeff Nadler said. He said the list of names had been
turned over with the understanding that it would be used only for investigation into
possible terrorist activities and would be returned.

Cut and Paste from Philidelphia Inquirer website. Dated 6 June 2002 http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/3411145.htm
 
Originally posted by funky__monks




Where in there is there an invasion of privacy? The only thing they are collecting is names, addresses and phone numbers. [/i]

And what exactly is the FBI going to do with those names, phone numbers, and addresses? That information all by itself doesnt give them squat! The FBI will use that information and expand upon it. Now, my name is a "non-arabic" name and most likely will not draw much attention....but what if my name was .........Abdullah Al Rhafjani...??? Chances are the FBI would be tailing me, checking my background, etc. All based on information which was provided to them without warrant or permission. I dont remember but Id be willing to bet that the PADI forms I filled out had a disclaimer on them indicating that the information I was providing would not be disclosed to a third party.

Ive been tailed and investigated before by officials from the Pentagon. A buddy of mine was Seal team, and was being promoted to Seal team 6, which at the time didnt officially exist. After being tailed for several days, I recieved a call from the Pentagon official who questioned me for about an hour. He asked me every kind of personal question imaginable...about myself and about my buddy. Found out the next day that all my other friends were also tailed and also recieved a call. They corroborated all of our stories to make sure we were telling the truth. My buddy made the team, and eventually wound up a Seal Team commander and then an Instructor. That kind of investigation I dont mind at all......I volunteered it.
 
Originally posted by funky__monks
The 4th amendment does _not_ protect you from anything you knowingly expose to the public [1]. If you have done anything to make it known you are a diver in public [like... posting on this board], then you can't make any 4th amendment claims to privacy about anyone telling the FBI that you are a diver, as you have already made that information public.
[1] LEWIS v. UNITED STATES, 385 U.S. 206 (1966)

I took criminal law in college so I think I know a little about the law, and just because I post on this message board doesnt mean you have a right to know my name, my address, my city, my ssn#, etc.. unless I advertise it freely on this board. If I knownly expose my address to this board, you are correct I cant claim my rights were violated. However when I sign a confidental document with PADI, that is exactly what it is. Granted the FBI just asked for it which doesnt make them at fault for PADI freely handing it over anymore then it is for them asking a suspect a question and he freely admits guilt.

While the above may be true, courts have also held that asking for information may not be a violation of your rights, but asking for confidental records records where their is a expectation of privacy does require a search warrant. I'm also willing to bet if they ever did arrest someone based on those records, the fruits of the tree, in this case the records would be thrown out of court.

Ryan
 
A police investigation is not a search unless it intrudes on a person's privacy. In other words, if a person did not have a "legitimate expectation of privacy" in the place or thing searched, no "search" has occurred.

The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution places limits on the power of the police to make arrests; search people and their property; and seize objects documents and contraband (such as illegal drugs or weapons). These limits are the bedrock of search and seizure law.Search and seizure law is constantly in flux and so complex that entire books are devoted to it. This acovers the basic issues that you should know, beginning with an overview of the Fourth Amendment itself.

The Fourth Amendment: Protecting Your Privacy
The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads as follows:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The search and seizure provisions of the Fourth Amendment are all about privacy. Most people instinctively understand the concept of privacy. It is the freedom to decide which details of your life will be revealed to the public and which will be revealed only to those you care to share them with. To honor this freedom, the Fourth Amendment protects against "unreasonable" searches and seizures by state or federal law enforcement authorities.

The flip side is that the Fourth Amendment does permit searches and seizures that are considered reasonable. In practice, this means that the police may override your privacy concerns and conduct a search of your home, barn, car, boat, office, personal or business documents, bank account records, trash barrel or whatever, if:

the police have probable cause to believe they can find evidence that you committed a crime, and a judge issues a search warrant, or the particular circumstances justify the search without a warrant first being issued.

''In determining what is probable cause . . . we are concerned only with the question whether the affiant had reasonable grounds at the time . . . for the belief that the law was being violated on the premises to be searched; and if the apparent facts set out are such that a reasonably discreet and prudent man would be led to believe that there was a commission of the offense charged, there is probable cause justifying the issuance of a warrant.''

Additional issues arise in determining the validity of consent to search when consent is given not by the suspect but by a third party. In the earlier cases, third party consent was deemed sufficient if that party ''possessed common authority over or other sufficient relationship to the premises or effects sought to be inspected.

When the Fourth Amendment Doesn't Protect You
As mentioned just above, the Fourth Amendment permits "reasonable" searches. But before getting to the question of whether or not a particular search is reasonable, and therefore valid under the Fourth Amendment, it must be determined whether the Fourth Amendment applies to the search in the first place.

The Fourth Amendment applies to a search only if a person has a "legitimate expectation of privacy" in the place or thing searched. If not, the Fourth Amendment offers no protection because there are, by definition, no privacy issues.

Courts use a two-part test (fashioned by the U.S. Supreme Court) to determine whether, at the time of the search, a defendant had a legitimate expectation of privacy in the place or things searched.

Did the person subjectively (actually) expect some degree of privacy?

Is the person's expectation objectively reasonable, that is, one that society is willing to recognize?

Only if both questions are answered with a "yes" will a court go on to ask the next, ultimate question: Was the search reasonable or unreasonable?

For example, a person who uses a public restroom expects not to be spied upon (the person has a subjective expectation of privacy) and most people -- including judges and juries -- would consider that expectation to be reasonable (there is an objective expectation of privacy as well). Therefore, the installation of a hidden video camera by the police in a public restroom will be considered a "search" and would be subject to the Fourth Amendment's requirement of reasonableness.

On the other hand, when the police find a weapon on the front seat of a car, it is not considered a search under the Fourth Amendment because it is very unlikely that the person would think that the front seat of the car is a private place (a subjective expectation of privacy is unlikely), and even if the person did, society is not willing to extend the protections of privacy to that particular location (no objective expectation of privacy).

A good example of how this works comes from a recent U.S. Supreme Court in which the court held that the a bus passenger had a legitimate expectation of privacy in an opaque carry-on bag positioned in a luggage rack above the passenger's head, and that the physical probing by the police of the bag's exterior for evidence of contraband constituted a search subject to Fourth Amendment limitations. (Bond v. U.S., No. 98-9349 (April 17, 2000).)

If, upon review, a court finds that a search occurred and decides that the search was illegal (unreasonable), any evidence seized as a result of the search cannot be used as direct evidence against the defendant in a criminal prosecution, state or federal. This rule, established by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1961, has come to be known as the "exclusionary rule." To this day, many commentators criticize it on the ground that it unfairly "lets the criminal go free because the constable has erred." But the rule's supporters argue that excluding illegally seized evidence is necessary to deter police from conducting illegal searches. According to this deterrence argument, the police won't conduct improper searches if the resulting evidence can't be used to convict the defendant.

In addition to being excluded as evidence against the defendant, evidence resulting from an illegal search may not be used to discover other evidence under a legal rule colorfully known as the "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine. The "tree" is the evidence that the police illegally seize in the first place; the "fruit" is the second-generation product of the illegally seized evidence. Both tree and fruit are inadmissible at trial.


Dumbra v. United States, 268 U.S. 435, 439 , 441 (1925), Steele v. United States, 267 U.S. 498, 504 -05 (1925), Draper v. United States, 358 U.S. 307, 311 (1959), Brinegar v. United States, 338 U.S. 160, 173 (1949), United States v. Ventresca, 380 U.S. 102, 107 -08 (1965), Jones v. United States, 362 U.S. 257, 270 -71 (1960), Aguilar v. Texas, 378 U.S. 108, 111 (1964), Giordenello v. United States, 357 U.S. 480, 486 (1958), Whiteley v. Warden, 401 U.S. 560 (1971)

Illinois v. Rodriguez, 497 U.S. 177 (1990). See also Florida v. Jimeno, 500 U.S. 248, 251 (1991)
 
The problem is that the primary goal of any government agency is to maintain and increase it's power and size. To that end the FBI will push to and beyond the limits every time. You cannot trust the agency (any agency) to do the right thing. They will do as much as they can get away with.

When I entered the service of this country I swor an oath to, "Protect the Constitution against ALL enimies, foriegn and domestic."

The idea that there are cases where a search is OK without a warrant is an attack on the Constitution. The language is not ambiguous, it says clearly that there MUST be a warrant for a search. The probable cause MUST be there to get the warrant.

I remember something in there about the federal government having only those power given to it by the Constitution. Where in there does it say the government can arrest people in annother country, remove them to a third country, hold them incommunicado, jail them without charges or trial and while doing it say it is the "pursuit of justice?"

The attacks were NOT an act of war, they were a crime, actually several crimes. They call for investigation and prosecution under the LAW.

Bombing in Afganistan does not bring terrorists to justice, nor does it bring justice to the innocent people there who are killed.

War never results in peace. At best a war will end in cease fire and an agreement to not fight anymore, not the same thing as peace at all.

Justice, can result in peace. Treating EVERY person in the world with true justice and fairness will do more to end terrorism than every task force, agency, officer and gun there is.

I never say the pledge of allegence anymore as I cannot stand the lie, "liberty and justice for all", HA! What a joke. More like for a select few and only with the consent and participation of the government agencies that want to be involved.\

Now that they (all those govt agencies) can get away with nearly anything if they claim it is to fight terrorism ... well, does anybody else see the obvious opening for massive increase of power over the people?

Like I said before, if I find that a dive training agency just handed over MY information to the FBI then I will take action against them. There response should be, "Sure, we will provide anything you want as long as it is spelled out in the SEARCH WARRANT."
 
Originally posted by pipedope
Like I said before, if I find that a dive training agency just handed over MY information to the FBI then I will take action against them. There response should be, "Sure, we will provide anything you want as long as it is spelled out in the SEARCH WARRANT."

Quote from News Article:

"Shops and the Professional Association of Diving Instructors (PADI), which certifies the majority of the nation's divers, said they are providing the FBI with the names of adult students certified to scuba dive within the United States during the past three years, a list that would include an estimated 2 million people. The FBI is also seeking the names of any students who may have begun classes and then dropped out."


Ryan
 
Just because we are paranoid, does NOT mean they are not out to get us...

Peoples, being a foriegn born I have had to deal with the INS. Due to past indescretions (war protests), I have been investigated by the FBI.

I don't believe either wish us harm, but both have caused me a great deal of inconvenience over nothing. I am not sure if it is incompetence, stupidity, or just trying to deal with the volume of information that they accumulate... I just know that they have more than their share of SNAFUs. It might even be just individuals within these agencies that fail to use "reasonable" discretion.

You say your right to privacy has been violated... I agree, but I am NOT refering to Uncle Sam. I am refering to all this crapola I get through the mail or through the I-net to sell me diving crap and magazines. Those are the ones I do not want having my address... I sorta trust Uncle Sam. Even when he makes boo-boos, his heart is in the right place. No, he may not be defending our rights in the way we THINK they should be protected, but that is indeed what they are endeavoring to do.

It's like a fence around your house... some want it for keeping stuff from getting away... others to stop bad stuff from getting in... some don't even want the fence! BUT, most of us agree we need some type of protection around ourselves. Now, I may not get to decide how high or wide or what color this fence is going to be. I may even see better ways to use or make the fence. That's OK... the big thing is that the fence is there. It may not be perfect, but it's there to keep crap out and stop our valuables from leaving.

So if their having my name on file in the middle of all their beuracracy, helps them to make our fence just a little tighter, then so be it. If PADI or NAUI decide to give my name to the Feds (I can see them now, "Oh no! Not him again!!!") then that's cool... just don't sell it to them thar marketers!!!
 
Hmmm....last time I was in Germany, things looked pretty peaceful to me. I even thought we had good relations with not only Germany, but Japan. Shows what I know. (end of sarcasm )

As repugnant as it is, war is sometimes necessary to remove from power those who believe that the world would be better off without certain groups of people. If one seriously believes that the world would be better off if Hitler, Idi Amin, Milosevic, and an all-star cast of others, had not been stopped, then that person's values are in need of serious examination.

While I am not a rabid fan of Mr. Ashcroft (indeed, I believe he will go as far as he can and then another 2 steps), I am at a loss to identify another modern society which has not only codified and institutionalized individual rights to the extent that the United States has, but carries out the enforcement of their existence with the same zeal that we do.

I find the knowledge of whether or not someone has completed a given training course to have roughly the same impact on personal freedoms as the knowledge of whether or not someone turned right or left at the intersection of Main and Elm.
 
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