Flower Gardens Incident...A Gut Check?
- Thread starter Beachman
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Mitch
Guest
Beachman, I think I need to clarify something. I know, as I am sure you do as well, that there was a 'diver lost' incident on the Spree last month. However, re-reading your post, noting it was dated on the 26th, it sounds like there has been a seperate incident. Is this correct? What can you tell us?
Everyone, I had stated this before back during the incident in July, but I will say again that this should NOT be a reflection on Rinn Boats. I can not emphasize enough how much attention they paid to safety details on the two trips I went out with them. I did this then and will again strongly endorse them for FG trips.
Everyone, I had stated this before back during the incident in July, but I will say again that this should NOT be a reflection on Rinn Boats. I can not emphasize enough how much attention they paid to safety details on the two trips I went out with them. I did this then and will again strongly endorse them for FG trips.
Natasha
Contributor
Beachman,
Excellent post. I have read many posts on the Flower Gardens.
I think yours tells it like it is. Scuba diving should never be about showing off. I always hope people will speak up for themselves and not do what they really shouldn't be doing.
I think your out-line is easy to understand and should be read by any diver thinking of going out there.
While I personally have dove in conditions where the ladder was bouncing up and down in 5' waves, it's not exactly fun seeing the black and blue marks the next day.
It sounds like it's not a dive for everyone, and if do decide to dive it when I move to Texas in 10 months, I don't think I'll take my newly certified sons with me.
Thanks for the info.
:sunny:
Excellent post. I have read many posts on the Flower Gardens.
I think yours tells it like it is. Scuba diving should never be about showing off. I always hope people will speak up for themselves and not do what they really shouldn't be doing.
I think your out-line is easy to understand and should be read by any diver thinking of going out there.
While I personally have dove in conditions where the ladder was bouncing up and down in 5' waves, it's not exactly fun seeing the black and blue marks the next day.
It sounds like it's not a dive for everyone, and if do decide to dive it when I move to Texas in 10 months, I don't think I'll take my newly certified sons with me.
Thanks for the info.
:sunny:
On August 24th, jbd suggested on this board that folks might want to check into captain of the Spree Frank Wasson's post on another board:
Here is the link for others who wish to read the post:
http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=342383&t=342383
There are also several other related posts on that board, including a second one by Caprain Frank, which generated a lot of response.
Here is the link for others who wish to read the post:
http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=342383&t=342383
There are also several other related posts on that board, including a second one by Caprain Frank, which generated a lot of response.
Mitch
Guest
Beachman, thanks for providing the link. My deepest sympathies do go out to the family and friends of the deceased however I am very troubled by the fact that he went out there with only two OW dives experience since his certification two years ago, not to mention that he was over 100 pounds overweight and one who lived a sedentary lifestyle. I don't want to be cruel and heartless, but attempting to dive at all, much less a rather challenging dive such as the Flower Gardens is outright asking for trouble. Yet, some lawyer going to persuade the family to sue Rinn Boats and anyone else remotely affilated with this because they think they caused the guy's death. That is what will tick me off.
Natasha, when you get down here, should you want to go out and do a Flower Gardens trip, please feel free to contact me. I have been out there twice and I will be happy to be your buddy. However, I would advise that you book the trip before you get down here as they usually do sell out several months in advance. If my math is correct, you will be moving here sometime in June/July. If you wait until after then, you will be lucky to get on any trips before the year is out.
Natasha, when you get down here, should you want to go out and do a Flower Gardens trip, please feel free to contact me. I have been out there twice and I will be happy to be your buddy. However, I would advise that you book the trip before you get down here as they usually do sell out several months in advance. If my math is correct, you will be moving here sometime in June/July. If you wait until after then, you will be lucky to get on any trips before the year is out.
I have been reading about this incident and really do not have any specific knowledge about the site or the captain. But I was looking into this in regard to a different post. Here are some things for you guys to ponder...I am outta here until I have something useful to add.
I wonder if the "diver" was queried about the number of dives in the past year and his most recent dives? If he lied and it can be proved...independent witnesses...there will not likely be much of a case.
However, if the shop asked him and he told them the truth, they have a serious problem. By taking him they are indicating that someone with his background and experience can do that dive without special precautions. The posts on this thread could be used as "evidence", for example, that that is not the case. You guys are possible "expert witnesses".
If they did not ask AND it is common practice to ask those questions, they are in trouble, too. Deviation from accepted norms is a real wedge in liability suits.
Finally, his physical condition is an interesting topic. We have all filled out those waivers that ask us to verify that we are in good physical condition, but it is not clear what the standard is. So, if the dive shop regularly takes people who are overweight by some standard and they have all performed well, that will not help the plaintiff's case. However, if he was way outside the bounds of their normal customers they could have a problem.
I do not want to get into a legal discussion here, but I have been discussing this stuff with Son #1, the lawyer, and with another diver who is a lawyer: it has been eye opening. According to "Diver-Lawyer" there are some articles in "Undercurrents" about liabilty suits and the dive industry. He did not remember specifics I am going to try to find them. My son said that there were a few cases he ran into that were settled out of court...so there is no indication as to who accepted responsibility. If I find out more and you guys are interested, I will report back. If not, I will wander off into the sunset.....
Joewr
I wonder if the "diver" was queried about the number of dives in the past year and his most recent dives? If he lied and it can be proved...independent witnesses...there will not likely be much of a case.
However, if the shop asked him and he told them the truth, they have a serious problem. By taking him they are indicating that someone with his background and experience can do that dive without special precautions. The posts on this thread could be used as "evidence", for example, that that is not the case. You guys are possible "expert witnesses".
If they did not ask AND it is common practice to ask those questions, they are in trouble, too. Deviation from accepted norms is a real wedge in liability suits.
Finally, his physical condition is an interesting topic. We have all filled out those waivers that ask us to verify that we are in good physical condition, but it is not clear what the standard is. So, if the dive shop regularly takes people who are overweight by some standard and they have all performed well, that will not help the plaintiff's case. However, if he was way outside the bounds of their normal customers they could have a problem.
I do not want to get into a legal discussion here, but I have been discussing this stuff with Son #1, the lawyer, and with another diver who is a lawyer: it has been eye opening. According to "Diver-Lawyer" there are some articles in "Undercurrents" about liabilty suits and the dive industry. He did not remember specifics I am going to try to find them. My son said that there were a few cases he ran into that were settled out of court...so there is no indication as to who accepted responsibility. If I find out more and you guys are interested, I will report back. If not, I will wander off into the sunset.....
Joewr
blacknet
Contributor
Hello,
I know in alot of cases the 'waiver' that you sign is about useless in the courts. Yea i'd have to agree and would have to see more info than what was provided on this issue but regardless of the outcome this could get really nasty before it gets better.
Ed
I know in alot of cases the 'waiver' that you sign is about useless in the courts. Yea i'd have to agree and would have to see more info than what was provided on this issue but regardless of the outcome this could get really nasty before it gets better.
Ed
This is from another board, but I think gives an "in between" point of view:
I also just got back from a visit to the Flower Gardens on Wednesday. After reading all these postings, it makes me more scared of diving than the dives did. I'm a relatively new diver who had a fun and safe time on the Spree. My biggest problem was getting off the boat. (5 ft giant stride is kinda scary for people who are afraid of heights). I went to Bonaire last year and there were very little safety rules to follow. Basically you were handed your tanks for shore diving and they waved goodbye. On the Spree EVERYONE on the crew felt a PERSONAL responsibility that you had a safe and fun dive. I do not want to second guess anything the crew of the Spree did b/c I think they go above and beyond.
I think that divers need to take responsibility for themselves. I knew when I went out there that I did not have tons of experience. Therefore I chose divemasters as my buddies and I dove very conservatively. When conditions
got bad on Stetson bank, I chose to sit out the night dive well before the call was made to cancel it b/c I didn't think I needed to go. I think the same goes for physical condition. It is no one's responsiblity but your own to decide if you are fit to dive. If you read DAN's suggested criteria, I doubt very many people fit into it but you still have to be informed.
Bottom line is....if this guy had a heart attack, he could have had one even if he was sitting on the couch at home. I think we should not make this into a witch hunt but each look at ourselves and make sure that we are doing everything we can to be safe.
Merry
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I also just got back from a visit to the Flower Gardens on Wednesday. After reading all these postings, it makes me more scared of diving than the dives did. I'm a relatively new diver who had a fun and safe time on the Spree. My biggest problem was getting off the boat. (5 ft giant stride is kinda scary for people who are afraid of heights). I went to Bonaire last year and there were very little safety rules to follow. Basically you were handed your tanks for shore diving and they waved goodbye. On the Spree EVERYONE on the crew felt a PERSONAL responsibility that you had a safe and fun dive. I do not want to second guess anything the crew of the Spree did b/c I think they go above and beyond.
I think that divers need to take responsibility for themselves. I knew when I went out there that I did not have tons of experience. Therefore I chose divemasters as my buddies and I dove very conservatively. When conditions
got bad on Stetson bank, I chose to sit out the night dive well before the call was made to cancel it b/c I didn't think I needed to go. I think the same goes for physical condition. It is no one's responsiblity but your own to decide if you are fit to dive. If you read DAN's suggested criteria, I doubt very many people fit into it but you still have to be informed.
Bottom line is....if this guy had a heart attack, he could have had one even if he was sitting on the couch at home. I think we should not make this into a witch hunt but each look at ourselves and make sure that we are doing everything we can to be safe.
Merry
----------------------------------------------------------------
Sent using Phorum software version 3.2.11 <http://phorum.org>
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Hmnnn,
You know if anything, I think PADI has a good line on how to avoid liability. Even those who are critical of this agency will probably concur with that assessment. When you first learn to dive, and for every subsequent class, you fill out a waiver that states that you have no physical problems and that even though you understand the inherent dangers of diving, you are fool enough to jump into the drink anyway. If you actually HAVE a physical limitation that you are WILLING to admit, then you must have your doctor clear you to dive. Consequently, if you just happen to die in the suds from not being physically up to it, then its either your fault or the doctors.
No, this document is not notarized, but it would still be considered evidence nonetheless. If it subsequently becomes apparent (to the jury, that is ) that the deceased had prevaricated, then the issue of culpability becomes weighted far more towards the deceased. Somehow, I dont think PADI is just hoping to some blind justice here. The wording of the waiver is explicit, and is very solid no matter how you may want to discredit it.
That being said, the crux of these posts is not on whether the captain and crew are in deep judicial do-do. No, the major theme is how we as divers view our fellow divers and just where we should draw the line. I am 6 and a HEFTY 280 Big bouncy pounds and definitely ashamed of it. I regularly swim a mile freestyle and then snorkel another mile right after that. I did pass my Rescue Divers course, but not easily, and would not, COULD NOT, presume to consider myself in shape unless of course, you merely consider round a shape to be in. The deceased diver in question however, was FAR rounder than even me. He also had a history of hypertension Could his poor condition been something that any of the divers on board could see? I would think so.
So when do we, as mere divers, clients if you will, speak up and protest the inclusion of certain people(s) for a particular diving excursion? Do we have that right? Or is it more like a duty? As a Dive Master, I have a certain legal liability to any diver that I CAN assist no matter if I am employed by the dive charter or not. The same applies even more to instructors. Would it not be better to raise the flag of caution (in private, no doubt) before we hit the suds? From the reading of the other post, this man would dwarf me 350 pounds!!! I would recuse myself from being his Dive Master if for no other reason than I couldnt get him out of the water if the need arose. Hey, they had that very same problem. Would you do a dive with equipment that couldnt see you through? Well, they apparently let that man do that.
Now, dont get me wrong, they obviously did all that they could, and I was not there to be able to give either a learned or moronic opinion of who is to blame. I do not want to play either judge or jury! I just want to point out, that sometimes you have to speak your mind when something does not feel or look right. As divers, most of us take full responsibility for our own actions, and yet figure we will just let the Dive Charter handle the rest of the chattel. I think its time for us to be more vocal when we see a problem in the making. We should be private and tactful sure, but we should still have the gonads (or ovaries) to at least say something. To those of us who already do this hurrah! To those of us who need a kick in the pants well, as the first post alluded to this should be a Gut-Check!
You know if anything, I think PADI has a good line on how to avoid liability. Even those who are critical of this agency will probably concur with that assessment. When you first learn to dive, and for every subsequent class, you fill out a waiver that states that you have no physical problems and that even though you understand the inherent dangers of diving, you are fool enough to jump into the drink anyway. If you actually HAVE a physical limitation that you are WILLING to admit, then you must have your doctor clear you to dive. Consequently, if you just happen to die in the suds from not being physically up to it, then its either your fault or the doctors.
No, this document is not notarized, but it would still be considered evidence nonetheless. If it subsequently becomes apparent (to the jury, that is ) that the deceased had prevaricated, then the issue of culpability becomes weighted far more towards the deceased. Somehow, I dont think PADI is just hoping to some blind justice here. The wording of the waiver is explicit, and is very solid no matter how you may want to discredit it.
That being said, the crux of these posts is not on whether the captain and crew are in deep judicial do-do. No, the major theme is how we as divers view our fellow divers and just where we should draw the line. I am 6 and a HEFTY 280 Big bouncy pounds and definitely ashamed of it. I regularly swim a mile freestyle and then snorkel another mile right after that. I did pass my Rescue Divers course, but not easily, and would not, COULD NOT, presume to consider myself in shape unless of course, you merely consider round a shape to be in. The deceased diver in question however, was FAR rounder than even me. He also had a history of hypertension Could his poor condition been something that any of the divers on board could see? I would think so.
So when do we, as mere divers, clients if you will, speak up and protest the inclusion of certain people(s) for a particular diving excursion? Do we have that right? Or is it more like a duty? As a Dive Master, I have a certain legal liability to any diver that I CAN assist no matter if I am employed by the dive charter or not. The same applies even more to instructors. Would it not be better to raise the flag of caution (in private, no doubt) before we hit the suds? From the reading of the other post, this man would dwarf me 350 pounds!!! I would recuse myself from being his Dive Master if for no other reason than I couldnt get him out of the water if the need arose. Hey, they had that very same problem. Would you do a dive with equipment that couldnt see you through? Well, they apparently let that man do that.
Now, dont get me wrong, they obviously did all that they could, and I was not there to be able to give either a learned or moronic opinion of who is to blame. I do not want to play either judge or jury! I just want to point out, that sometimes you have to speak your mind when something does not feel or look right. As divers, most of us take full responsibility for our own actions, and yet figure we will just let the Dive Charter handle the rest of the chattel. I think its time for us to be more vocal when we see a problem in the making. We should be private and tactful sure, but we should still have the gonads (or ovaries) to at least say something. To those of us who already do this hurrah! To those of us who need a kick in the pants well, as the first post alluded to this should be a Gut-Check!
Natasha
Contributor
Mitch,
That's the best offer I've had in a long time.
Yes, you're right, June or July should be the moving dates.
It's a bit hard for me to plan that far in advance right now. I still have to find a house and job once I'm there.
But hopefully I can get some local diving in, if the Flower Gardens are full. I think I read in the TEXAS posts, there might be some diving closer to Houston. Right?
:sunny:
That's the best offer I've had in a long time.
Yes, you're right, June or July should be the moving dates.
It's a bit hard for me to plan that far in advance right now. I still have to find a house and job once I'm there.
But hopefully I can get some local diving in, if the Flower Gardens are full. I think I read in the TEXAS posts, there might be some diving closer to Houston. Right?
:sunny:
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