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...well, the $ 0.25 covers the VASELINE.....
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I have to say it before someone else does...that line really cracked me up on a Friday night! That's just hilarious! That and some other comments got me fired up and I have a little time on my hands before I head out for the evening so I thought I'd get back in this discussion.
Sorry Bob, but isn't this thead specifically about the $700 (plus) fins you make? We're discussing the justification of such a high price tag on an unusual fin that you are trying to sell. This kind of reminds me of the $100 snorkel that came out a couple years ago. Looks like a good idea on paper but have you tried snorkeling with one??? I have. No matter how hard I tried, I could never get all the water out without taking it completely out of my mouth and actually dumping it out. That's no good! I'd ask for my money back if I actually bought the thing. (I gave it a shot and tried that snorkel a few times just to see what was up. I'd take my twenty dollar basic purge snorkel with no fancy crap on top or inside any day of the week. Why? It does what it says it will do, it works, and it's easy to use. Plus it's reasonably priced in it's market. I don't want to be convinced that something is the best just because it's the most expensive. It's the best for me because it performs well and delivers on my expectations giving me value and leaving me satisfied as a consumer.)
Ultimately there is no dollar limit and there is no design limit on fins. I guess Force Fins could make them gold plated and add titanium force wings and ask thousands of dollars if they want to. They might even sell a few of those too. It comes down to "what do people need?" and "what works for them?". I'm sure they could sell some of these high dollar fins once in while to a shiek or bazillionaire, I mean, why else would they make them if there wasn't a market, right? It's just when something is so out of the ballpark from anything else it will be scrutinized severely.
When someone compares Force Fins here as Rolls Royces vs Fords we have to step back and take an objective and logical look. In the Rolls you have fine leather, hand made wood accents and trim, an extremely high performance engine, brakes and suspension among many, many, many other measurable luxury features and options. Some are merely cosmetic and some are down right bad ass. Pretty much everyone throughout the world recognizes the Rolls as the creme de la creme of automobiles. They have a track record and an aura about them that is practically unbeatable. We justify some of the expense of a Rolls yet most people see them as too over the top and not really practical.
With Force Fins (which I do actually like more than a lot of other fins believe it or not) it's a lot more difficult to pinpoint the features that really make these worth paying four to eight (maybe even ten?) times as much as many other competing brands. Plus, no matter how much you try to convince me, I see the pods, force wings and whisker add-ons as devices that significantly contribute to the actual drag of the fin, not the efficiency, especially on side to side movement (which I believe is almost 50% of your total fin and leg movement on any given dive, especially if there's any surge or water movement.)
I dive in the ocean almost daily for the last twenty five years and it sure is dynamic to say the least. There's a lot more to moving around than just going balls out in a straight line. I'd venture to say I never do more than ten or twenty kicks in a row ever to go straight underwater. There's always something that keeps me moving around, checking my buddy/guests, shifting positions and course as I explore the reef, dealing with water movement, underwater topography, things of interest, etc.
I may not dive like everyone else out there and there is most likely a situation that warrants everything that the Excellerating Tan Delta fin is supposed to be good for, like busting a move upstream for a long distance or pushing something heavy and bulky through the water. Most recreational divers I've met (and I've met tens of thousands) have no business getting involved with that stuff though. I prefer not to dive in situations like that and spend the majority of my time underwater fluttering about more like a 'honey bee' than a determined 'salmon' heading back upstream to lay it's eggs and die.
Different strokes for different folks, yeah? The OP was trying to find justification for paying $786.25 (Where did that number come from anyway? It's kind of a weird price, no?) He was asking around the best scuba forum on the internet. So far from what I've been reading here (Yes Meesier, I can actually read... although not that well. Please forgive me, I'm trying.) not too many people so far can seem to substantiate the cost with hard factual evidence to support paying it.
So, speaking of cost Bob, when you said you were in DC meeting with the people who put their lives on the line... should this lead me to believe that our government is supplying our military with $700 fins? Maybe soldiers need them but they are not your average diver either. If you got the government contract then good for you.
Maybe Force Fins should consider updating their website and fins description to indicate that the Excellerating Tan Deltas are for high stress situations and are not necessarily for the average fish gazer. Then they might not get so much heat about the price but they might have to come with a warning label to go with them: "Diving in Extreme Situations is Hazardous. Although These Fins are Designed for Extreme Diving Situations Do Not Engage in Extreme Diving Situations Unless You Are a Trained Professional with Quaified Supervision" or something like that.
It has been brought up that Force Fins keep changing with new ones being added to the line constantly. If the design is so inherently good to begin with, why so many subtle changes? And when it says right on the website that the: "
Optional Force Wings (pictured with Speed Pods) can be turned to increase resistance --intensifying your swim workout even more, or to decrease resistance, for specific swim stroke correction or to target specific muscles." that leads me to believe that they already create resistance and you can twist them for even more or less resistance. (You may say it's out of context but I read this to mean Pods, Whiskers and Force Wings have resistance on ALL of the models that they're available as options on, not just the swim training fins, Mr. Meesier)
My bottom question is: Who really wants resistance when they dive? We've been taught from the beginning it's all about streamlining. That's the biggest problem with most fins out there. They push you forward then you have to drag them through the water to prepare for the the next push. Some paddle fins feel like sea anchors. Splits? They really have lots of drag, kind of like a bubbly eyed goldfish. Try moving your foot side to side with splits on. Most fins I've used have varying levels of resistance and that is why people complain about leg cramps, sore and tired legs and ankles, etc. That's why they get tired, suck up their air and don't enjoy their dives as much as they really could. It's too much work for them.
Try diving with ZERO resistance and you will never go back unless your main objective is to get a workout. I have found the MorFins to be the worlds most hydrodynamically efficient fins I've ever worn. They have very little resistance in water yet they propel you well. They may not help you push that pneumatic underwater jackhammer around so great but if you're doing that kind of thing you're out of the league of recreational scuba anyway and hundred dollar fins may not cut it for you. The standard Force Fins are actually very close in low resistance to Morfins in my opinion but still a little too noodly for my taste and needs and I don't like the feel they give me on the side to side leg movements. The shape lends to twisting of your foot and therefore, more resistance.
I think the only way to really know is to try some Excellerating Tan Deltas on a dive. Are they available as demos anywhere? At that price I suspect not but I also expect that they should be. I mean, if I put them on and they just completely blew me away, price might not be an issue at all. But if they are just 'kind of' better, you'd have a hard time getting me to part with my 8 Ben Franklins.
Will we be able to demo some Tan Deltas at DEMA Bob? It's just a 4' deep pool, I know, but it's better than nothing. I'd like to see how they feel on my feet. Please let me know. I plan on attending again this year. You probabaly don't remember meeting me before so I hope to meet you again. Like I said before, I think Force Fins work quite well compared to most other fins out there...even if they are a little strange looking. Morfins get a lot of heat about the way they look too so you're not alone. It's funny; people don't give the fish grief for being perfect but they sure are quick to ridicule a dive fin!
