freediving after scuba

[5ata]

Yeah. I'm just a little concerned too. I just am getting into scuba, and had ordered my subscription to Dive Training, when I thought I would question the accuracy of this article. I hope they don't normally have this type of misinformation. The cover itself gives the headline of "getting wet during surface intervals. Snorkeling and freediving techniques made easy." Even if you didn't read the article you could walk away with the wrong idea.

I just need to make sure I'm getting the right info to stay alive!

I understand your concern on this issue - this is what annoys me about the state of the dive industry as a whole. The laxness of skills taught just to keep new divers pumping through the dive agencies rosters is sickening. As much as I hate to say it, PADI is the biggest culprit in this - and yet, they have the highest profile of the dive cert agencies. I even had to resort to taking their Divemaster course only because they are the only game in town. And I don't lend any credence to those PADI-bots who espouse the party line - PADI is a joke compared to NAUI or SSI's standards. If I had my way, it would be NAUI or SSI for my pro cert. I've seen too many divers go from open water to instructor in a years time and the thought of those instructors teaching gives me chills. :shakehead

 

[freediver]

I understand your concern on this issue - this is what annoys me about the state of the dive industry as a whole. The laxness of skills taught just to keep new divers pumping through the dive agencies rosters is sickening. As much as I hate to say it, PADI is the biggest culprit in this - and yet, they have the highest profile of the dive cert agencies. I even had to resort to taking their Divemaster course only because they are the only game in town. And I don't lend any credence to those PADI-bots who espouse the party line - PADI is a joke compared to NAUI or SSI's standards. If I had my way, it would be NAUI or SSI for my pro cert. I've seen too many divers go from open water to instructor in a years time and the thought of those instructors teaching gives me chills. :shakehead

Cliff, your second sentence says it all, "the laxness of skills taught". This implies a lot of responsibility on behalf of the instructor. The standards are pretty similar in nature in regards to the overall objective, to create safe and competent divers. Everyone tends to nail PADI since they are a large agency and, unfortunately, may very well have a large number of crappy instructors that make PADI standards appear less than adequate. But until we have some sort of auditing process (a silly questionnaire isn't adequate) to ensure that minimum standards are being met, we will continue to see "laxness of skills taught" through ALL agencies. I've said it before, I'll say it again, let's not make the standards tougher, let's make the teaching more thorough.

 

[5ata]

I agree with you freediver - the problem as I see it is that the standards have been relaxed so much. Example: I know of a NAUI instructor who, because of the standards and practices allowed within NAUI, allows for the instructor to not only have the student show minimum competency in a skill, but can ask them to do more as needed from that instructors standards. As such, his open water students put to shame many of the AOW students pumped out by the local PADI shop.

If my information is correct, PADI doesn't give it's instructors that kind of freedom - expecting them to just hand out cert cards if the student barely passes the minimum requirements - I find that totally unacceptable. But then again, I have heard the adage "There are good PADI instructors and bad ones, the same goes for NAUI, SSI........"

I think PADI is the whipping child because they are so prevelent - My experience has been from talking with people I know in other countries - they laugh at anyone who says they are PADI certified... In some european countries, you have to have 4 years of college to teach scuba - you literally get a college education to teach within these national scuba programs. That to me is proper training, but hey, we all need to make a living some how...

Funny thing is, I don't even meet the minimums for my PADI DM right now because of my so called logged dives aren't there - even though I have them and am more comfortable in the water and have more practical experience than the said requirements or most of the others in my DM class. PADI doesn't teach freediving (aka Skin Diving) worth a damn, which in my opinion, makes a better scuba diver.

Like today while finishing up at the pool after doing deep water dynamic apnea - an open water diver commented on how easy I made it look and he could never do that. I told him, you take one of my classes, you'll learn to freedive and be a better scuba diver..

I know veteren scuba instructors who quit tank diving because of the politics involved in the industry. Now they only teach freediving and look to the new generation of so called scuba instructors with a grain of salt.

I feel it is each agencies mission to develop leading instructors who have the attitude of serving their students through leadership - without arrogancy. Some are beginning to get the clue on that - but it is still rare..

I bet you are one of those who has the clue and serves his students with proper leadership skills while instilling good dive skills..

 

[SNorman]

I read the article and took it to mean snorkling at the surface.

 

[Ann Marie]

If my information is correct, PADI doesn't give it's instructors that kind of freedom - expecting them to just hand out cert cards if the student barely passes the minimum requirements - I find that totally unacceptable. But then again, I have heard the adage "There are good PADI instructors and bad ones, the same goes for NAUI, SSI........"

You are not correct. PADI has standards and if a student meets them, they meet them. A student has to show mastery of a skill. Mastery is defined as reasonably comfortable, fluid, and repeatable manner. If a student has not mastered a skill and a PADI Instructor passes them, then shame on the instructor.

If you are so anti-PADI why put yourself through the expense and time of going PADI? I would never want to work with a DM that held such a low opinion of the agency he trained with.

 

[PerroneFord]

You are not correct. PADI has standards and if a student meets them, they meet them. A student has to show mastery of a skill. Mastery is defined as reasonably comfortable and repeatable manner. If a student has not mastered a skill and a PADI Instructor passes them, then shame on the instructor.

Wrong.

I have seen a lot of new students go through many different agencies. But I have yet to see ANY new OW student have a mastery of ANY underwater skill. Could they perform a skill? Perhaps. But mastery, no.

If you disagree, go take the mask off a newly certified from the agency of your choice, then tell them to do a regulator drop and recovery, and maintain buoyancy.

Ask a newly certified OW student to hover 2ft above the platform in a swimming position and remain motionless. Ask them to remove and replace their regulator in this position, and then their mask.


These tests might indicate some mastery of skills to me. Unfortunately, most OW students haven't even mastered their power inflator, or use of their fins the first time their C-Card gets wet. I was one of them.

 

[Ann Marie]

Wrong.

I have seen a lot of new students go through many different agencies. But I have yet to see ANY new OW student have a mastery of ANY underwater skill. Could they perform a skill? Perhaps. But mastery, no.

If you disagree, go take the mask off a newly certified from the agency of your choice, then tell them to do a regulator drop and recovery, and maintain buoyancy.

Ask a newly certified OW student to hover 2ft above the platform in a swimming position and remain motionless. Ask them to remove and replace their regulator in this position, and then their mask.


These tests might indicate some mastery of skills to me. Unfortunately, most OW students haven't even mastered their power inflator, or use of their fins the first time their C-Card gets wet. I was one of them.

No, I'm not.

The skills you state above are not skills that PADI requires for OW certification and that is what we were talking about.

As I said above PADI's defination of mastery is a skill done in a reasonably comfortable, fluid, and repeatable manner.

 

[PerroneFord]

No, I'm not.
As I said above PADI's defination of mastery is a skill done in a reasonably comfortable, fluid, and repeatable manner.

The idea that PADI and Mastery are in the same sentence should be criminal. But that's a story for another day. PADI's mastery seems to imply that skills done kneeling on the bottom of a pool, quarry, or ocean floor, indicates the diver is ready to dive on their own to 60ft. And I don't just toss this at PADI, I toss it at many agencies and instructors.

But the fact remains, I have seen what PADI seems to consider comfortable and fluid. And so has just about everyone else here.

 

[freediver]

The idea that PADI and Mastery are in the same sentence should be criminal. But that's a story for another day. PADI's mastery seems to imply that skills done kneeling on the bottom of a pool, quarry, or ocean floor, indicates the diver is ready to dive on their own to 60ft. And I don't just toss this at PADI, I toss it at many agencies and instructors.

But the fact remains, I have seen what PADI seems to consider comfortable and fluid. And so has just about everyone else here.

During the Confined Water Dives,
mastery is defined as performing
the skill so it meets the stated
performance requirements in a
reasonably comfortable, fluid,
repeatable manner as would be
expected of an Open Water Diver.
A student who manages to meet the
stated performance requirements in
such a way that it raises a question
as to whether the student could reliably
perform the skill for multiple
repetitions has not met the definition
of mastery. Beginning student divers
need not perform a skill with the
polish expected of a divemaster, but
should practice until you are confident
they can perform the skill reliably.

The above is PADI's definition of mastery for confined water.
For open water this is in addition to the above:
As in confined water, barely
managing to meet a performance
requirement does not meet the definition
of mastery. A beginning diver isn’t
expected to perform skills without stress,
but you should be confident that the
student can perform the skill reliably.

The word YOU (instructor) here is the operative word. This is where the problem lies. I suppose what we must do is develop a measure of what we (whoever this may be) would expect of an open water diver. What would you expect? Once again, don't harden the standards, make the teaching more thorough.

 

[PerroneFord]

Really,

All I expect of n OW diver is to be able to share air mid-water, fin without stirring up the bottom, and handle his or her own gear. I'd like them to have a safe attitude about diving, and some motivation to understand why skill development post-class is important. That's about it really.

Basically, the ability and attitude to be a good diver and a good buddy.