Goliath groupers

[LowVizWiz]

But is it so preposterous to think that Goliath Groupers are decimating local fish populations? Afterall, everyone here says that haven't been studied very well. Maybe overfishing whiped out the Goliaths main predators too.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath_grouper

Grouper are preyed upon by large fish such as barracuda, king mackerel and moray eels and large sharks.

I know I'm biased as a fisherman, but I do believe that if you were to open a season strickly for hook and line rec. fishermen with strick size limits, bag limits, closed areas and permits much like the snook their stock could be sustained and monitored to measure the impact of the season.

This has been done before with success with snooks as I mentioned before and with red snappers too.

The reason I suggest only hook and line is beacuse as some of you have posted we know how curious they are and could be easily taken by spearfishermen. This has also been done with snook.

 

[Hank49]

Would it be wrong to assume that since a top predator has multiplied to high numbers, that it indicates a generally healthy overall fish population? Which is a good sign? They have to be eating something.
Regarding hook and line...man. The only big jewfish I see landed here are guys using 250 lb handlines who can follow a hooked fish deep into the shallow mangroves and tire, then muscle them out. There doesn't seem to be a real sporting way to land them with rod and reel other than using steel leader for the last 50 yards on your reel. Otherwise they run into the trees or a hole in the reef and cut your line.

 

[LowVizWiz]

Regarding hook and line...man. The only big jewfish I see landed here are guys using 250 lb handlines who can follow a hooked fish deep into the shallow mangroves and tire, then muscle them out. There doesn't seem to be a real sporting way to land them with rod and reel other than using steel leader for the last 50 yards on your reel. Otherwise they run into the trees or a hole in the reef and cut your line.

Absolutely it's very difficult to land a Goliath on rod and reel, but it is possible and it actually a blast!

http://www.bigbendsportsman.com/tactics/jewfish.htm

Currently, people do fish for Goliath groupers and it's strickly catch and release at least in FL. The difficulty level of doing it on rod and reel is the key to not over fishing them IMHO.

 

[archman]

I know I'm biased as a fisherman, but I do believe that if you were to open a season strickly for hook and line rec. fishermen with strick size limits, bag limits, closed areas and permits much like the snook their stock could be sustained and monitored to measure the impact of the season.

This is a very good idea in theory, unfortunately it is highly susceptible to abuse. No-take regulations are quite black-and-white. Education and enforcement are much easier than regs allowing any sort of take-home captures. The U.S. and Bahamian fisheries and game warden people I talk to see catch rules bent, twisted, and outright violated so much, they almost view it as an "accepted practice".

It's a lot harder to bend the rules with no-take in place... assuming that at least a minimum enforcement capability exists.

 

[Rocha]

Is the Goliath really eating that much snapper? Or is it us? Check this (posted lats month):

http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061215/NEWS02/612150322/1009

An estimated 12 million pounds of red snapper are fished from the Gulf of Mexico every year, I wonder what proportion of that is taken by Goliaths...

 

[LowVizWiz]

This is a very good idea in theory, unfortunately it is highly susceptible to abuse. No-take regulations are quite black-and-white. Education and enforcement are much easier than regs allowing any sort of take-home captures. The U.S. and Bahamian fisheries and game warden people I talk to see catch rules bent, twisted, and outright violated so much, they almost view it as an "accepted practice".

It's a lot harder to bend the rules with no-take in place... assuming that at least a minimum enforcement capability exists.

I agree that it would be susceptible to abuse, but the same people who abuse it now are the ones who would be abusing it then.

The difference is right now there's no added revenue from permits etc. that would help the FWC. You must also police no-take regulations...

There's been no-take for nassau grouper for quite some time and you would be surprised to see how many are taken due to ignorance of the regulation or just plain lack of respect for it due how difficult it is to enforce.

Every time I go to Flamingo I see many juvenile goliaths taken by mistake because people can't tell between a juvenile and an adult you are absolutely correct it's not a black and white issue but I know how much the added funds would help. FWC is losing their law enforcement personel to local police departments 'cause they can't afford to pay enough.

The Bahamas is a totally different story... the area is so vast with very little resources it's a nightmare to police it right now. You see it every year during the snapper and grouper spawns. People fish Bimini and don't even bother to get the fishing permits.

 

[archman]

I agree that it would be susceptible to abuse, but the same people who abuse it now are the ones who would be abusing it then.

It's a much larger subset of the recreational fishermen, actually. Fish on no-take lists can't be on a boat unless the animal was just brought in. Many (U.S.) fisher's aren't willing to take the same risks with no-take animals that they would with other sportsfish. It's easier on the *mindset* to sneak off with under/oversized or bag-limit-exceeded animals. There's also that extra layer of regulatory complexity which fuels legitimate mistakes by leisure sportsfishers.

My fishing inspecting pals see a LOT more under/oversized and catch-exceeded animals than they do restricted species. They chalk it up to, uh... "human nature". I've heard that shark fishing boats up in the New England area are especially bad.

The difference is right now there's no added revenue from permits etc. that would help the FWC. You must also police no-take regulations...

Yeah, this is true. Probably one of the main (agency) arguments towards reopening the fishery, in fact. I can see the agencies taking a very cautious approach with this, however. If they need the money that bad, they can get it by upping other fees or whining to the legislature.

There's been no-take for nassau grouper for quite some time and you would be surprised to see how many are taken due to ignorance of the regulation or just plain lack of respect for it due how difficult it is to enforce.

I don't doubt that Nassau are being poached any differently than Goliath's. But having both species on no-take status does make a discernible difference over lesser regulated groupers. Even the Bahamian fishermen show extra restraint towards Nassau's... I have yet to see one catch and keep a Nassau in my presence. What goes on outside my presence... well that's something else. Bahamians don't waste perfectly good food.

 

[HowardE]

I don't know how common they are on the west coast of FL, but they are not that common on the east coast. I've seen them thrive by one particular wreck that I've dived on occasion, and seen as many as 20 on a single dive, but for the most part; there's about 8 Goliaths that have for the most part taken residence on this wreck in Boynton... Other than that, they seem quite rare around this part of florida.

I certainly don't think that they should be fished out here (at least yet) - maybe things are different on the gulf coast, and Florida could allow a limited season in the gulf? I don't have a problem with fishing, but I think it's a little premature for a statewide season.

 

[FredT]

There are places with an over abundance of jewfish. There are also places with a lack of them. There is little known about what the big boys eat as they cannot be adequately sampled to confirm stomach contents.

The solution is a spearfishing ONLY tag sale with the tag defining the valid harvest area, valid to/from window (15 to 30 days?) and minimum fish size. The bottom half of the tag to be returned with pictures of stomach contents and signature of the wildlife officer called to meet the boat at landing. Tag permanently attached to fish gill plate is not valid on land unless signed by inspecting officer. This will result in an exact data set and an absolutely targeted hunt with NO BY CATCH!

A $50 to $100 tag price covers the research cost.

OF course this probably won't play well with Dr. Crabtree. The presence of any real data will likely cause his forced retirement since he has been fudging numbers to justify his pet programs for at least a decade.

Divers SEE what is going on down there. He apparently guesses from the safety of his desk with "made up" numbers and significant junk science.
FT

 

[archman]

The solution is a spearfishing ONLY tag sale with the tag defining the valid harvest area, valid to/from window (15 to 30 days?) and minimum fish size. The bottom half of the tag to be returned with pictures of stomach contents and signature of the wildlife officer called to meet the boat at landing. Tag permanently attached to fish gill plate is not valid on land unless signed by inspecting officer. This will result in an exact data set and an absolutely targeted hunt with NO BY CATCH!

That sure puts a lot of responsibility onto the local fisheries division to have enforcement personnel on station. Outside of large marinas and their own offices, those personnel are typically dispersed all over kingdom come. The returning spearfishers would all have to be funneled into a common inspection point (ie specific marina or dock) that was permanently manned, or at least manned during the harvest window.

But I guess if enough people want to spear a jewfish that bad, the agencies wouldn't have any trouble with it. It would be a good educational and research tool as well.

Fred always has the best ideas...