Gotta vent!!!

[James connell]

bermudaskink once bubbled...
If liabilty release forms were really worth the paper they are written on, instructors and DMs wouldn't have to purchase insurance!!
:idea:

that's BS! you get the waivers so your insurance will keep covering you.

you buy insurance so when ( and it is when not if) some fool who screws up and sues it doesn't come out of your pocket.

you can be sued for anything - proving it is the problem. more than half the cases get thrown out just because of the waiver.
you don't have to have done anythng wrong to be sued but you still have to defend your self and insurance companies can afford better lawyers than a DM can alone.

 

[DennisW]

I'm not a lawyer, but I have some small amount of common sense, not that common sense has anything to do with courts or lawyers (a small apology to the laywers and judges out there). The waivers we sign when we dive with a dive shop or charter are usually pretty much good for the operator of the shop or boat. However, there are no waivers for gross negligence. If negligence can be proven, then there is no waiver in the world that will help. If an insturctor or dive master (basically a professional diver) is there to brief a dive, then he is responsible for the safety of the people who has signed his waiver. If he did not make sure those people are capable of making a dive, it is negligence and in court, someone will inevitably ask if it would have been prudent for a professional diver to have made sure the participants of the dive were capable of making the dive. It is obvious to me as a potential juror of a court that it would be prudent. Not doing so would be negligence.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Genesis]

It is obvious to me as a potential juror of a court that it would be prudent. Not doing so would be negligence.

As the holder of an OW card (and a few more) it was stressed to me during my OW class that once you have that card you are responsible for determining the conditions of a given dive, for diving within your skill and ability, and for making that determination on your own.

In fact, a significant part of the class materials are devoted to exactly this point.

As such were I on a jury I would find that there was no negligence, provided that the divemaster described the conditions of the site adequately, and appropriately disclaimed any part of the description and conditions that he did not personally have knowledge of (e.g. "I was last on this wreck a week ago, and there was a 1/4 knot current at the bottom the last time I was there.")

In Florida at least, dive waivers are typically 100% enforceable, and there is a wide body of case law on the subject. The only exception is typically gross (not ordinary) negligence, or incidents not really related to the actual diving (e.g. the operator runs you over with the boat and chops you into chum with the propellors.)

 

[bermudaskink]

James connell once bubbled...


that's BS! you get the waivers so your insurance will keep covering you.

If the waivers actually did what they say they do... you wouldn't need insurance.

 

[Knavey]

I think it is reasonable to assume that a waiver will protect you to an extent, but it is also reasonable to say that it will crack under the pressure of a determined lawyer. Trust it only as far as you are comfortable.

 

[PhotoTJ]

He is setting a bad example, and I wouldn't choose to hang out with him, but I don't think it's a standard.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Well said DennisW. One of the issues in court will be whether what the DM did was reasonable and in line with what a prudent DM would have done in the same situation. Letting divers of minimal ability and questionable currency make the dive unaccompanied may not be regarded as being reasonable or prudent by a jury and if so, the signed waiver will be meaningless.

 

[Genesis]

is to dive with friends, and this way there are no DMs, no "professional standards", and these issues simply don't arise.

 

[Knavey]

Genesis once bubbled...
is to dive with friends, and this way there are no DMs, no "professional standards", and these issues simply don't arise.

I think this is the shortest post you have ever made! I always look for yours when I am in the mood to read....give us MORE!

That being said, you are right. KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid. Dive with friends.

 

[diverbrian]

I didn't see anything implying what the experience of these divers actually was. If it was extremely limited, then the best place for the DM probably WOULD have been in the water.

If it was intermediate or better, then the DM staying on shore as a rescue diver (if needed) and with immediate access to an O2 Kit was probably the best option. That way the DM doesn't interfere with the diver's independence (But like I said, if I DiveCon a dive like this, I will be in the water. There is no other reason for me to go as my only "wages" are the free nitrox in this case. )

Genesis, as always, has a point. Normally I don't agree entirely. This time I will say that he is right that if you have diving friends that is the best option. If you don't, you may be limited to "shop fun dives" to have dive buddies. In that case, the LDS here will send a DiveCon or better to ensure that they have somebody there with Stress and Rescue/ DAN O2 training that is current.

These dives are another loss leader to the shop as they provide the Nitrox for the student and typically don't charge unless they plan to provide lunch/ dinner. But, they get people into the shop and makes sure that the divers have a place to socialize and dive if they can't go on a long road trip.