GUE Open Water class documentary

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The first time my OW students end up at the surface with their hand waving they will realize that the instinctual response to use their arms even just a little or even just as stabilizers is a non starter, because it is just too hard to overcome land instincts, even in a 10 day course. Stabilization is the job of fins and leg position

First off, thank you for writing your thoughts in detail.

I totally agree that stabilization is the job of the legs and fins (which is why I so thoroughly loathe split fins in OW class, because they make it difficult for the student to use their fins that way). But I really fail to see the difference between allowing the student to discover for himself the bad consequences of hand motion and telling the student the bad consequences of hand motion -- either way, the student is going to have to learn to stifle a counterproductive action, and learn that he has to address the stability issue he is trying to fix with his hands in another way.

It's my personal opinion that it doesn't matter at all where you tell students to keep their arms, or whether you tell them anything; if they are unstable, they will flap, and if they are not, the arms and hands will be quiet. I do believe, though, that forming the platform with arms out, head up, body flat and not flexed at the hips creates a stronger likelihood of stability for the student, and if you can get the gear somewhere near balanced, you can make it MUCH more likely that unnecessary motion will quickly disappear, no matter how the student is told or discovers why he shouldn't do it.

Having been certified in a dry suit myself, I'm actually quite impressed with the degree of stability these students show by the end of the class. Learning to be quiet in a wetsuit is much easier, because you only have the small air collection in the BC to manage, and it can only move around a certain amount. Dry suits add a HUGE degree of freedom, or dynamic instability, and it takes quite a while to learn how to park the gas in the suit exactly where you want it, and keep it there. (I have to confess that the one thing that puzzled me about the video was why on earth he chose to teach an open water class in EGYPT in dry suits!)
 
The debate on the hands, I'm not saying that there is ways to be like fish in the water. I look at someone and get there attention and I grab one hand and hold the other then i look up and kick then look down while still kicking then look right and circle them then look left and make a circle, then give the hand wave your turn. On the boat they are just thrilled, and I say yes and you have more air to enjoy the dive. Now this is to a diver from who knows where that I see struggling with hands. When I ask how many dives some say 30 dives or more.

Like laura mention she has 102's I also and have many other steels and AL, from jacket to Bp/w or just BP and the weight belt to intergrated to 1/2 n 1/2, Dry or Wet you automatically learn to adjust and be weightless and move with ease, short and tall have different ways when diving but eventually if you pay attention to what is happening you learn to adjust. Being perfect trim ain't always easy or the way to be in some dive applications.

I do not claim to teach yet the little info I given has made much more relaxed divers from my experience.
 
Beano, thank you for your comment about the position of the sun. It would never occur to me to worry about it . . . of course, we rarely squint in the Pacific Northwest.




But I'm intrigued with your criticism of the divers as "jerky". At the end, I do see the occasional brief balance loss, but overall, they appear very fluid to me. Do you have any video of your students at the same stage of development (end of AOW, say) to show me what you would like to see in preference?

Some day... just once... I want to "see" you say something snippy back to somebody who desperately needs it. You are just too damn nice. :shakehead:


I watched most of the video, skipping forward here and there, but i thought the whole course was not at all applicable to teaching scuba in the US. All the students were young, fit and trim...ANYBODY can teach them... lets see them do the same with American dive students.. 15-20 yrs older and 40 -60 lbs heavier..:rofl3::rofl3:
 
Well, do remember that a higher degree of fitness is a prerequisite for GUE classes. I'll have to look up what the swim test is for the open water class, but I would suspect it is the same as Fundies, which is 400 yards in 12 minutes.
 
First off, thank you for writing your thoughts in detail.
It's my personal opinion that it doesn't matter at all where you tell students to keep their arms, or whether you tell them anything; if they are unstable, they will flap, and if they are not, the arms and hands will be quiet. I do believe, though, that forming the platform with arms out, head up, body flat and not flexed at the hips creates a stronger likelihood of stability for the student, and if you can get the gear somewhere near balanced,)

That is the point of difference between what I am (teaching tourists in rental), and the GUE approach, which as I have said before is using (to whatever degree) gear to solve problems, that can be solved in other ways. I know the GUE mantra is 'don't use gear to replace skills', but in this case, there is a bit of that going on. Getting stable in typical recreation rental is harder than in a BP/W, but once students can get stable in standard rental recreational gear, they can get stable in anything.

Once students stop trying to use their arms as stabilizers in typical rec gear, they find ways to use their fins and whole body position to come to a point of stability. Once they are stable, and the body balance and proprioreception has been reprogrammed into underwater mode, then it does not matter where their arms go. Until they are stable, and reprogrammed, they cannot help but try and use their arms, because they are fighting at least 20 years of instinct to use them.

Arms back means that the temptation is removed. Once the temptation is removed, then they learn to use the other tools to get stable, and they reprogram their reactions. Once their reactions are reprogrammed, then arm position is unimportant.
 
Well, do remember that a higher degree of fitness is a prerequisite for GUE classes. I'll have to look up what the swim test is for the open water class, but I would suspect it is the same as Fundies, which is 400 yards in 12 minutes.

My understanding is that GUE currently has two published swim tests. Recreational is 300yd in 14 min. Technical is 400yd in 14min. Instructors are of course the final arbiter of what they make you swim, but it's guaranteed to be AT LEAST those distances and times.
 
...the GUE approach, which as I have said before is using (to whatever degree) gear to solve problems, that can be solved in other ways. I know the GUE mantra is 'don't use gear to replace skills', but in this case, there is a bit of that going on. Getting stable in typical recreation rental is harder than in a BP/W, but once students can get stable in standard rental recreational gear, they can get stable in anything.


Once students stop trying to use their arms as stabilizers in typical rec gear, they find ways to use their fins and whole body position to come to a point of stability. .... Arms back means that the temptation is removed. Once the temptation is removed, then they learn to use the other tools to get stable, and they reprogram their reactions. Once their reactions are reprogrammed, then arm position is unimportant.


Are you saying that holding one's arms out forward is using "gear" to solve a stability/trim problem? Or are you saying that a bp/w is gear being used to solve a stability problem (because I thought you were talking mostly about arm position but now I see bp/w mentioned)?

Since I tend to hold my arms out in front of me (hands clasped though, not "Superman" style, and maybe not as far out as they do in the video) I'm interested in understanding why that is potentially detrimental vs. holding them at one's side.
 
Are you saying that holding one's arms out forward is using "gear" to solve a stability/trim problem? Or are you saying that a bp/w is gear being used to solve a stability problem (because I thought you were talking mostly about arm position but now I see bp/w mentioned)?

Since I tend to hold my arms out in front of me (hands clasped though, not "Superman" style, and maybe not as far out as they do in the video) I'm interested in understanding why that is potentially detrimental vs. holding them at one's side.

I believe beanojones is missing the main advantage of a Bp/W. And that's custom fit. It eliminates the problems that ill fitting gear creates, which makes learning trim and buoyancy skills that much harder.

From my understanding GUE chooses to use backplates because they provide custom fits to each and every diver. This makes preforming skills easier since you and your BC are one unit rather than two units. If you've ever worn a stock BC you'll notice that it lags behind your movements.

GUE doesn't choose to use a backplate to replace skills. They use it to prevent the problems of ill fitting gear. Of course getting stable in rental gear is tougher. It doesn't fit, you cinch the cumberbun, but even in a horizontal position the BC rides up on you causing you to become feet heavy. Add a crotch strap and you've solved that issue. But now when you roll the BC lags behind. Cinch the shoulders (if you can even get them cinched enough) and that problem's solved. But hey you could just get a custom harness and have your BC fitting just fine everytime you put it on.
That's where a Bp/W w/ hogarthian harness comes into play.

It is generally easier to fit a backplate than to fit a stock BC from the many manufacturers.

If your gear fits you very well then a GUE trim position will benefit you in maintaining horizontal trim. Regardless of BC type, as long as it fits you very well you can use GUE trim to maintain a horizontal attitude. You can use a lot of different techniques to maintain a horizontal attitude, as long as the gear fits.

Now on to your question. If you have your legs bent like a GUE diver, you're already prepped to kick and move in any direction you want. If your legs are extended you have to take a moment to load a kick.

If your legs are bent like GUE, then having your hands down at your side makes you feet heavy; because your center of gravity will be more towards your hinny. If you hold your arms out, this shifts your center of gravity more towards your head so you can hold a horizontal trim.

Shifting how much your legs are bent and how far your arms are extended alters your center of gravity.
 
Shifting how much your legs are bent and how far your arms are extended alters your center of gravity.

That's what I was thinking, but I was now starting to wonder if I was somehow masking a problem that I should instead be dealing with.

(I haven't lately put my arms all the way back at my sides to see what happens - that I remember anyway - I'll have to consciously try it next time.)

Blue Sparkle
 
Still too wordy I am apparently, but this is interesting to me, and thinking it out, writing it out, and reading others experiences and thoughts is good for me at least. I know hearing about drysuit usage is always worth it for me. Hope you find my posts worthwhile. I know I must be repeating myself in parts, but that's because I am still thinking it all out, so some thoughts keep bubbling forward.



(First an important set of disclaimers: No dry suit diving for me. No real experience with it. That is important to keep in mind.Also students should be kept clear in the mind from divers who are done with the OW class.)

BP/Ws: They are required for all GUE courses AFAICT, and easy proper trim is the usual reason given for it. But trim can be reached in rental rec gear with proper instruction. I know because I teach only people in standard recreational gear and I have learned how to turn out trim calm divers in short courses in rental rec gear. It's not a given, but it is achievable. In that sense GUE is maybe(to a small degree) using gear (BP/W) to solve a training issue. (I am not a GUE diver or instructor.)

Arms forward is not at all detrimental for divers, as oposed to students. As LauraJ and TSandM point out, arms forward can be downright beneficial in circumstances. I myself like the pose in Sidemount because I like the tanks right under my armpits and I don't really have much choice when the tanks are in there. And for freediving, I like arms all the way forward even when I am not carry lights, because I like the full body dolphin kick.

But, arms are instinctively used on land for breaking one's fall and windmilling to regain balance. Even babies learn to run with arms forward to protect themselves, so the habit of using the arm swings to balance, and arm pushes to ward off is next to impossible to completely suppress. Students end up instinctively reacting and then consciously stifling the instinct until some other more appropriate underwater response is learned. Practicing setting buoyancy, and then doing breath pushups for a few hours starts to ingrain a new behavior patterns. Lung volume is simply never used to break one's fall on land, so there is no instinct fighting for control of lung usage*. Similarly every underwater kick is a new and different use of the legs movement, so there is no instinct fighting for control of leg movement. And full body dolphin kicks and body rotations are similarly all new tasks with body parts free from instinctive responses. If the arms are forward, students will try to use them to spin the body, instead of learning how to use the big paddles attached to the big muscles, and their abs. Or they will try and use them for balance, or to push off the bottom. Instinctual behavior can only be replaced by a more effective coping strategy, preferably with a different body part.

Arms seem to students to be useful because the arm swings to balance, and arms out to break fall are not anywhere close to a conscious response, they are a response to stimulus that precedes thought.. And simply verbally tasking a student not to use them when the arms are already forward is going to create an enormous buzz of "instinct/react to the instinct, and bite down on the instinct" chain reaction that sucks up brain cycles, and concentration cycles, and sucks away fun from diving. Instead of learning how to positively do something, they are tasked with continuously trying not to do something, which is the opposite of learning.

(Kind of like the joke: If I want you to think about a horse, they most effectively way is to say "Whatever you do, don't think about a horse". If I want them not to think about a horse, I could, should, and far more effectively, I will ask them to think about ice cream cones.)

That's jerkiness of fighting instincts, IME, is what happens when students learn with their arms forward, because 20 years of instinct is fighting with 10 days (or in my case significantly less time) of verbal instruction, instead of effective replacement body behavior. Talk is cheap, experience is priceless, is never more true than in in water scuba instruction. Don't tell students not to do something, show them how to accomplish the goal with new behavior. Anyone can learn new behavior, but unlearning behavior is incredibly difficult. Unlearning instinct withut a better more effective replacement behavior is off the chart difficult.

Experience has shown me that student divers are still in the process of trying to stop the instinctive use of hands. Putting the arms forward causes too much noise both in random jerks and such while the students goes to the instinctive response and then bites down on their instincts to stop themselves, and in the mental noise of having to keep a big "don't" flashing through the forebrain. I see these jerks in the video throughout.

Better to learn fin use and body control without the white noise of arm usage, which is still dominated by land instincts. Put the hands back, engage the rest of the body which has few instinctive barriers to effective underwater behavior. Once effective underwater behavior (and most importantly successful, positive underwater behavior) is ingrained than divers will use hands for whatever.

*Well there is but...
 
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