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Collin O'Brien

Registered
Messages
45
Reaction score
32
Location
Massachusetts (USA)
# of dives
100 - 199
Hello!

I am fairly new to diving and was hoping you all with far more experience and knowledge would be able to help me out. I have a few questions. One is, which company has better quality gear and warranty should anything happen when it comes to BP/W, OMS or Halcyon Dive Systems? I have been renting a Halcyon set-up recently and have had a good experience, it is just so expensive when compared to even high end Jacket BC or other BP/W set ups.

I am also a little confused on what specs to get as I am looking for a set-up I can use in both deep water New England diving and warm water Caribbean diving. Although I guess this could be solved with 2 different BP but I would like to save the money. But first some background:
  • I am 6’3 200lbs and dive in New England with a 7/5mm ScubaPro Everflex wetsuit, 5mm hood/gloves/boots.
  • I have been renting a Halcyon AL plate w/ 32lb wing and HP Steel 100 tanks.
  • When in salt water I have only really needed 8 extra pounds.
  • When in freshwater I have not needed any weight added at all.
So my questions would be should I go with the Steel BP or Aluminum BP? If I go Steel BP and went to the Caribbean would it become too negatively buoyant to manage with a thinner suit and less gear?

My next question is what exactly is the pounds (lbs) of lift on a wing? I have rented a 32lb but someone recommended I go with a 40lb. Then I was reading a post on here that mentioned going with the lightest wing you can for your weight needs which would be the 32lb I guess(?). Is this true or would the 40lb be better and why?

I seriously appreciate any advice anyone has based on my current info. I have read a lot of threads but the responses are pretty tailored to each individual so I figured I should ask with my own details.

Thank you!
Collin
 
so im not an expert.....but if you dont need to add weight for fresh water, i would stick with the Aluminum plate...i would rather be under weighted and have to add more, than over weighted and have to rely on my BC all the time.

regarding lift, all you really need is for your wing to
1) have enough capacity to deal with changes in buoyancy at depth.
2) have enough capacity to keep you above water on the surface.

personally i think a 32lb wing should be plenty

hell, i was diving a 23lb wing for a while while wearing 30 lbs of lead in a dry suit.......if you are properly weighted, you really shouldnt require much lift at all.

if you head down to warmer waters, you are going to be wearing a thinner wetsuit, which will give you less lift, meaning youll need less lead, theres a good chance youll only need a few pounds when diving in a 3 mil.

the other thing to consider is what tanks you will be diving when you travel, likely an AL80, so youll have to add about 5 lbs to compensate since youre using steel.


personally ide stick with an AL plate and a 32lb wing.....which brand doesnt matter.
 
halcyon is better build quality and customer service/warranty, but it also is a premium brand with a premium price. the dgx 30lb setup is significantly cheaper and still checks all the boxes, more bang for the buck.

DGX Custom - DGX Singles Harness / Backplate / Wing Package | Dive Gear Express®

steel backplate may be slightly overweighted with al80 if you are inherently negatively buoyant in salt water and also do not use a wetsuit. but not overly so unless if you sink like a rock. can always pick up an aluminum plate fairly inexpensively later on as needed.
 
Here is my stab at your questions:

Halcyon equipment tends to be at the pricier end of the spectrum. It is nice stuff but whether it is worth the expense is something that you would have to evaluate for yourself. Often the price of Halcyon gear is referred to as the "H" tax. I believe there are more affordable options of high quality gear on the market. Figure out what your budget is and then find brands that are within that range.

The major choices for backplates and wings break down to the following:
1. Material choice for backplate - typically the choice is between stainless steel, aluminum, and soft plates, though ABS plastic, Kydex plastic, carbon fiber and titanium also exist).

In my household we have stainless and aluminum backplates. I have no experience with soft plates. I also believe that an aluminum plate would provide more durability and a better price for similar weight compared to kydex, carbon, plastic and titanium plates.

If you are diving in cold water with a thicker exposure suit, the increased weight of a stainless plate will be of benefit as it shifts ballast around your center of mass. If you are traveling to dive a lot the lighter weight of an aluminum plate may help keep your baggage fees to a minimum.

You can certainly travel with a stainless steel plate to dive warm waters. It will not be too negatively buoyant, but it will most likely provide more ballast than you need depending on your body composition, residual lung volume, exposure suit choice, and other factors. If it is providing more ballast than needed it will be comfortably spread out over your center of mass and you can compensate by adding air to your wing.

Aluminum plates, 2-inch webbing, and some d-rings and tri-glides are not that expensive, so if you find that you are traveling a lot you can easily and affordably put together a 2nd backplate/harness to accommodate your dive plans.

2. Type of harness - typical choices are between a single continuous length of webbing vs. harness setup with separate waist and shoulder straps. Also padded vs. unpadded.

All the plates in our 4 diver household use continuous length of webbing (hogarthian style). My reading when first venturing into backplates was that there was a tendency for folks to buy fancier harnesses with adjustability and padding only to eventually migrate to a simple single continuous length webbing harness.

Comfort, delux, and multi-piece webbing harnesses are a good option if you have mobility issues with your shoulders, but my reading of others' exprience beyond mobility issues is that folks don't adjust their harness as much as they thought they would making it an expense that was not needed.

Another aspect of adjustable harnesses to think about is that often there are metal bits sewn into the webbing bits. The proprietary nature of this means that you either have to source replacement parts as the webbing wears out which can be at quite an expense, or cut out the metal bits and sew them into new webbing yourself (or hire someone to do it).

The simplest and least expensive option is the single length of webbing...it is also the most customizable with regard to placement of D-rings, pouches, what-have-you, as there is less to encumber your choice of where to position things.

3. Wing lift amount - for single tank wings the options are predominantly in the range of 18lbs to 32lbs of lift, though there are wings that have less and wings that have more lift out there. The shape of the wing has been of increasing focus as well.

The argument for wing size is that one should avoid a wing sized in excess of their needs to avoid excess drag in the water. For instance, it may seem more affordable to buy a smaller wing designed for double tanks or designed as a hybrid to use with both single or double tanks, but often these wings are not big enough for the needs of double tank divers and often are too big single tank setups....they tend to taco around the tank when inflated causing difficulty in reaching the lower rear dump valve, and causing drag due to the excessive material of the large wing.

The last few years has seen increased discussion on streamlined designs of single tank wings along with a mentality that leans towards a minimalist amount of lift. There are various rationals driving these gear choices, some well reasoned and some not grounded in reality at all.

For your body weight (200lbs), exposure suit (7/5mm), and experience level, I would recommend you get a wing with 30 to 35lbs of lift. The physical size difference between a 25lb lift wing and a 30 to 35lb lift wing can be argued as being negligible underwater (all other design factors being equal). For lift amount of the wing you need to decide where you will wear your additional ballast such as on your body via a separate weight belt/weight harness or in pockets mounted on the harness, plate, or tank straps. Your wing needs to provide enough lift suppport you and your gear on the surface....if all your ballast will be mounted on the rig you may find that you need a wing towards the end higher lift capacity spectrum to accommodate keeping it afloat at the surface without you strapped in to it.

My personal opinion is that a wing in the range of 30lbs to 32lbs of lift is more than adequate in most single tank situations and provides a margin for adapting to the ballast requirements of different exposure suits and water temperatures without being excessive in dimensional size.

All other choices are pretty much about how you want to customize your setup such as how many and where you want to position D-rings, pockets, etc. As mentioned above the simple single continuous length webbing provides the most amount of customization in this area.

For customer service, Dive Rite, Edge-HOG, DGX, Deep6, and DRIS are notably excellent among the many companies and retailers that provide good customer service and support. There is little to go wrong with a backplate and wing, and the modularity of the design makes it easy and affordable to modify and replace worn out components of the system.

I hope this helps and if you have any more questions, or if I failed to address any of your current questions/concerns please let me know in response here or by private message.

-Z
 
Very thorough response from @Zef. A few things that I’ll add:

- Everyone that I’ve met with a Halcyon BP/W is happy with it. On the flip side...everyone that I’ve met with a “budget” BP/W (ex. HOG, Deep 6, DGX, etc.) is happy with it...provided the wing has internal cylinder stabilization/roll control. I believe that’s standard for most, but you’ll want to check for that.

-As Zef said...it’s common for people (myself included) to start with a fancy padded BP/W and then transition to one that isn’t. I slowly started removing the padded pieces from my HOG custom/premium/whatever they called it. I eventually ditched the fancy webbing and went to one piece Hogarthian webbing.

-I’ve currently got a 32lb HOG wing mounted to a 5lb Dive Rite stainless steel plate with Hogarthian webbing. The 32lb wing is more than enough lift to run a HP100 or HP120 plus an AL40.

-Buy what you want to buy in a BP/W. You’re the one that has to be happy with it. Just saying that all of the mainstream BP/W setups that I’ve checked out in person (ex. HOG, Dive Rite, Deep Six, OMS, Halcyon, DGX, etc.) are well made and I wouldn’t hesitate to dive any of them.
 
Just one other note from my peanut gallery.....today I received my wife's new plate....a stainless steel plate made/marketed by SubGravity...it is their 3mm stainless steel small sized plate. Inspecting it, I am very happy with the quality....and the price was good too ($94 shipped -- contact DRIS via chat or by phone as the SubGravity plates are not available on their website, at least not the small version).

-Z
 
Thank you to everyone who replied to this thread, I certainly got a much better understanding of the specs of a BP/W set-up and what the reason for those particular specs are. I did end up going with the Halcyon in a SS BP as I will be doing mostly cold water diving now and can always grab an AL BP for travel later on. I do plan on wearing my added weight in pockets on the tank straps and plan on transitioning to diving dry-suit in the future so the 40lb wing was best for me. Halcyon doesn't make a 32lb, just a 30lb so that was my mistake. But for my size and cold water diving requiring extra gear, plus dry suit in the future, and weight on the rig itself I believe the 40lb was the better bet. I seriously appreciate everyone's input to help me at least understand what to consider and why I was to consider it. It was a huge help!!
 
Here is my stab at your questions:

Halcyon equipment tends to be at the pricier end of the spectrum. It is nice stuff but whether it is worth the expense is something that you would have to evaluate for yourself. Often the price of Halcyon gear is referred to as the "H" tax. I believe there are more affordable options of high quality gear on the market. Figure out what your budget is and then find brands that are within that range.

The major choices for backplates and wings break down to the following:
1. Material choice for backplate - typically the choice is between stainless steel, aluminum, and soft plates, though ABS plastic, Kydex plastic, carbon fiber and titanium also exist).

In my household we have stainless and aluminum backplates. I have no experience with soft plates. I also believe that an aluminum plate would provide more durability and a better price for similar weight compared to kydex, carbon, plastic and titanium plates.

If you are diving in cold water with a thicker exposure suit, the increased weight of a stainless plate will be of benefit as it shifts ballast around your center of mass. If you are traveling to dive a lot the lighter weight of an aluminum plate may help keep your baggage fees to a minimum.

You can certainly travel with a stainless steel plate to dive warm waters. It will not be too negatively buoyant, but it will most likely provide more ballast than you need depending on your body composition, residual lung volume, exposure suit choice, and other factors. If it is providing more ballast than needed it will be comfortably spread out over your center of mass and you can compensate by adding air to your wing.

Aluminum plates, 2-inch webbing, and some d-rings and tri-glides are not that expensive, so if you find that you are traveling a lot you can easily and affordably put together a 2nd backplate/harness to accommodate your dive plans.

2. Type of harness - typical choices are between a single continuous length of webbing vs. harness setup with separate waist and shoulder straps. Also padded vs. unpadded.

All the plates in our 4 diver household use continuous length of webbing (hogarthian style). My reading when first venturing into backplates was that there was a tendency for folks to buy fancier harnesses with adjustability and padding only to eventually migrate to a simple single continuous length webbing harness.

Comfort, delux, and multi-piece webbing harnesses are a good option if you have mobility issues with your shoulders, but my reading of others' exprience beyond mobility issues is that folks don't adjust their harness as much as they thought they would making it an expense that was not needed.

Another aspect of adjustable harnesses to think about is that often there are metal bits sewn into the webbing bits. The proprietary nature of this means that you either have to source replacement parts as the webbing wears out which can be at quite an expense, or cut out the metal bits and sew them into new webbing yourself (or hire someone to do it).

The simplest and least expensive option is the single length of webbing...it is also the most customizable with regard to placement of D-rings, pouches, what-have-you, as there is less to encumber your choice of where to position things.

3. Wing lift amount - for single tank wings the options are predominantly in the range of 18lbs to 32lbs of lift, though there are wings that have less and wings that have more lift out there. The shape of the wing has been of increasing focus as well.

The argument for wing size is that one should avoid a wing sized in excess of their needs to avoid excess drag in the water. For instance, it may seem more affordable to buy a smaller wing designed for double tanks or designed as a hybrid to use with both single or double tanks, but often these wings are not big enough for the needs of double tank divers and often are too big single tank setups....they tend to taco around the tank when inflated causing difficulty in reaching the lower rear dump valve, and causing drag due to the excessive material of the large wing.

The last few years has seen increased discussion on streamlined designs of single tank wings along with a mentality that leans towards a minimalist amount of lift. There are various rationals driving these gear choices, some well reasoned and some not grounded in reality at all.

For your body weight (200lbs), exposure suit (7/5mm), and experience level, I would recommend you get a wing with 30 to 35lbs of lift. The physical size difference between a 25lb lift wing and a 30 to 35lb lift wing can be argued as being negligible underwater (all other design factors being equal). For lift amount of the wing you need to decide where you will wear your additional ballast such as on your body via a separate weight belt/weight harness or in pockets mounted on the harness, plate, or tank straps. Your wing needs to provide enough lift suppport you and your gear on the surface....if all your ballast will be mounted on the rig you may find that you need a wing towards the end higher lift capacity spectrum to accommodate keeping it afloat at the surface without you strapped in to it.

My personal opinion is that a wing in the range of 30lbs to 32lbs of lift is more than adequate in most single tank situations and provides a margin for adapting to the ballast requirements of different exposure suits and water temperatures without being excessive in dimensional size.

All other choices are pretty much about how you want to customize your setup such as how many and where you want to position D-rings, pockets, etc. As mentioned above the simple single continuous length webbing provides the most amount of customization in this area.

For customer service, Dive Rite, Edge-HOG, DGX, Deep6, and DRIS are notably excellent among the many companies and retailers that provide good customer service and support. There is little to go wrong with a backplate and wing, and the modularity of the design makes it easy and affordable to modify and replace worn out components of the system.

I hope this helps and if you have any more questions, or if I failed to address any of your current questions/concerns please let me know in response here or by private message.

-Z
Hello....................................Wow.
Just had to say "What an excellent reply. Many will benefit from this. Thanks very much
Cheers.
 
I tried a few BP/W setups and eventually bought the Halcyon Infinity because of the Cinch Adjustable Harness. I love the fact that I don't have to twist and squirm to get out of the BC on a crowded moving, rocking boat.
I realize the Cinch is not for everyone.
My money/my choice.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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