Hawaii diving over Christmas

[erichK]

For EricK


Have had a number of great dives with Kona Diving Company.
Small number of divers, great crew and dive guides.
Really good boat.

Thank you for the recommendation. Unfortunately, on calling them, I found out that they use the standard PADI release which includes signing away one's right to seek compensation even for injury (or worse) caused by their negligence. As someone with some legal experience, I find it difficult to enter into such a contract.

If we cannot find people that actually accept some responsibility for providing a safe service for their clients, then we may have to forget about diving!

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Thank you for the recommendation. Unfortunately, on calling them, I found out that they use the standard PADI release which includes signing away one's right to seek compensation even for injury (or worse) caused by their negligence. As someone with some legal experience, I find it difficult to enter into such a contract.

If we cannot find people that actually accept some responsibility for providing a safe service for their clients, then we may have to forget about diving!

I think you'll have a hard time finding any dive op anywhere in the U.S. that does not require you to sign a waiver. I'm not any attorney, but my understanding is that that in the U.S. cases of gross negligence cannot be "signed away", regardless of the waiver. I believe the waiver is required by the dive companies insurers, and helps provide the dive companies a very thin layer of protection from frivolous lawsuits by negligent divers. It provides evidence, along with your certification card, that you understand that diving and riding on boats carries some risk, and you accept that risk.

Diving in Hawaii is not like diving in a remote "3rd World" location. The dive ops have huge legal liability under U.S. law, and are aware they can be sued for, well, almost anything.. and they act accordingly. In addition to civil exposure, they also fall under US Coast Guard regulations if they operate a dive boat.

My experience, and those reported by other local divers and "visiting divers", has been overwhelmingly positive as far as the quality of service and safety.

Having said all that, there is no way to completely protect someone from themselves.

This is not directed at you erichk, but I've seen vacation divers that range from outstanding to "train wreck"! Some divers only dive once a year, or only once every several years, have significant skills issues, and yet the dive ops manage to "save them from themselves" and at the same time keep them happy!

Not a job I'd want...

Most of the "Dive Master's" leading dives are actually Instructors, and do a good job shepherding a wide range of divers, but ultimately the safety of the dive is up to the diver!

Best wishes.

 

[erichK]

I think you'll have a hard time finding any dive op anywhere in the U.S. that does not require you to sign a waiver. I'm not any attorney, but my understanding is that that in the U.S. cases of gross negligence cannot be "signed away", regardless of the waiver. I believe the waiver is required by the dive companies insurers, and helps provide the dive companies a very thin layer of protection from frivolous lawsuits by negligent divers. It provides evidence, along with your certification card, that you understand that diving and riding on boats carries some risk, and you accept that risk.

My problem with the PADI waiver arises from the inclusion of negligence - by extension ever gross or willful negligence. I certainly have no problem being responsible for my own actions, and even doing my best to support fellow divers. What you say about the caselaw in cases of gross negligence is unfortunately only partly true, based on information and discussion that actually took place here (part of it around loss-of-life on one of the avenger boats).

Diving in Hawaii is not like diving in a remote "3rd World" location. The dive ops have huge legal liability under U.S. law, and are aware they can be sued for, well, almost anything.. and they act accordingly. In addition to civil exposure, they also fall under US Coast Guard regulations if they operate a dive boat.

Apparently that depends on the size of the boat, but we have decided that we will probably "bite the bullet" and sign the damn release with Kona Huna, who do, indeed, operate such large boats, after a discussion of such issues in which they were- like you - refreshingly frank about the situation.

A major part of the reason for choosing them was the fact that many of their instructors have other certifications than - or usually in addition to PADI.

My experience, and those reported by other local divers and "visiting divers", has been overwhelmingly positive as far as the quality of service and safety.

Having said all that, there is no way to completely protect someone from themselves.

I am fully aware of some of the litigious nut cases US courts and juries have actually granted awards to. OTOH, exempting someone from any consequences for gross or willful negligence means you - or your heirs - would have no recourse even if you were hit by a boat anchor they uncaringly or even angrily threw over the side as you were surfacing.

This is not directed at you erichk, but I've seen vacation divers that range from outstanding to "train wreck"! Some divers only dive once a year, or only once every several years, have significant skills issues, and yet the dive ops manage to "save them from themselves" and at the same time keep them happy!

Not a job I'd want...

Agree with you here, too. People should have to periodically recertify if they do not have a record of diving regularly. I have, three times, over my decades of fairly intermittent diving. Not because I had to, but because I felt that it would be safer to take a whole new course and update and refresh my skills. I fact we not only got all our equipment overhauled, but also did a refresher course over the last week.

Most of the "Dive Master's" leading dives are actually Instructors, and do a good job shepherding a wide range of divers, but ultimately the safety of the dive is up to the diver!

True, but with the cost of diving in places like Hawaii, it is not unreasonable to expect a little guidance and support.

Best wishes.

Thank you, have a good Christmas )or however you celebrate family, community and the return of the light!)

 

[Umin Chu]

I just want to dive and go somewhere for lunch. lol

 

[scottitheduck]

3am and awake with a sick daughter and after getting her back in bed (after several round of vomiting) I almost woke the whole damn family reading, and subsequently snickering quietly as best I could, Umin's last post.

Not to hijack the thread entirely but to visiting guests of all the Hawaiian Islands who are planning a trip here I wanted to make one thing clear. The "local standard" in Hawaii is to have a guided tour of our reefs and wrecks by a professional dive leader. I cannot speak for all of the operators but have dived with many on Maui, Hawaii and know several on Kauai that an inwater, fully insured and current member of XYZ dive agency is in fact an unwritten standard.

The "thin protection" that a waiver provides operators such as ourselves is just one piece of a responsibly run dive operation. Our goal is not to scare away well trained and perfectly reasonable divers like erichK away but rather to warn them of the risks they assume when coming out on a dive vessel.

I HAVE logged dives in far flung corners of the world where a personal flotation device was your BCD so it's probably a good idea to check for leaks in rental gear
: ) Vessels in Hawaii are routinely boarded by the CG and all important safety gear and emergency devices should be functioning properly otherwise the boat will never leave the slip (or trailer if you are on Maui).

In 8+ years of being an instructor on Oahu I can honestly say that because of our "style" of dive tours the instructors and DM's have a keener focus on safety, standards and good diving practices than all other places I have been. I do hope that you chose to dive on the Big Island and commend you for keeping your skills up through re-certifying yourself over the years. Of course all of us as dive professionals wish our various training agencies would do things differently but the fact remains, once you are certified as a diver you are certified for life.

If I leave any mark on the divers I rely on for my daily bread it should be one of safety, fun and adhering to a pre set dive plan that includes environmental concerns, hazards, low on air situations and buddy separations. It may seem odd but the only reason we all have jobs as professionals is to keep the worst case scenario from happening and as Lead Turn pointed out you never can protect a bad diver from themselves. I guess in summary all we aim to do is to provide a safe and positive experience that can have a lasting memory for our guests.

Enough of my diatribe...... let's go diving!

G

 

[Umin Chu]

I'm really loving the island. Scheduled a dive for Monday. Anyone else on one here going to be there?

A little bit of touring.


Rainbow Falls by Ingerson Photo, on Flickr

 

[acooper]

Hopefully the surf dies down a bit for you, it has been epic on the Kona side. Had a shore dive with a friend planned today, we scrubbed that idea.

 

[Umin Chu]

I hope so too. I'm not exactly sure where we'll be going. We're meeting at Nautilis at 8:00 am tomorrow.(23 Dec)

 

[Umin Chu]

Absolutely awesome conditions today. Beautiful here in Hawaii. Thanks everyone.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFfXs3epedM

 

[Umin Chu]

So for the lunch portion of diving. I have some strong recommendations for you all.

1, Go to Cronies and get the triple decker BLT. Oh my God that was amazing!

2, Go to Pesto and get the Hakalau. OUTSTANDING!!!!!