How to use doubles?
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ivobj
Contributor
i was planning on using doubles pretty soon, like by february. first is besides the manifolds on the tank and my bp/w which i am getting soon what else am i going to need. second is, i was planning on just using a basic nitrox like 36% for this any reccomendations for a kid. any regulator and other gear purchases, i do have a air inter wireless computer and a mares mr22 abyss. what do you use for a reg, hose lengths, plus other gear i am forgetting.
thanks
After all the recommendations of other posters I hope that by now you are already sure that diving doubles without proper training can get you killed. Honestly, I support some previous comments that you need a lot more experience and be 100% confortable, with perfect control over your buoyancy, etc, etc to move into doubles, they are for specific dives and require specific procedures and equipments.
I believe that I speak for many divers that use doubles that when doing recreational they also use single cylinder, as is my case, if I don't need doubles, I dive either with single when I want to have fun, or even with double, but for training, to stay sharp for more complex dives.
That said, answering you OP, the link below gives you many information on equipments, but again, you will need tutoring, as there are many configurations possible, for equipment, hose routing, etc, that one is my preference. Another issue, with doubles, you need redundant buoyancy, so when you see there thermal protection, you should consider drysuit, which is way more expensive, as most of the equipment necessary, comparing to recreational diving.
You asked about computers, another lesson, with doubles you must plan the dive ahead always, not trust 100% on a computer, you can have it to check, but your plan is the most important, I don't use a computer, only a botton timer and depth gauge.
Equipment Configuration | Global Underwater Explorers
Jupiter31
Contributor
Glad you posted, huh 
You got some great advice - I'd rethink the plan for a few years for the reasons already given.
There is so much diving you have in front of you - and if in a few years you want to get into tech diving, you will have the age, and skill set to do so.
With your age, and dive count, I don't see a (compentent) instructor certifing you - much more to it than just strapping on a set and going diving.
Good Luck!
You got some great advice - I'd rethink the plan for a few years for the reasons already given.
There is so much diving you have in front of you - and if in a few years you want to get into tech diving, you will have the age, and skill set to do so.
With your age, and dive count, I don't see a (compentent) instructor certifing you - much more to it than just strapping on a set and going diving.
Good Luck!
bamamedic
Contributor
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Hey, dori fish....
If you're in the Alabama area, I'd love to get together and dive with ya....you can take a look at my doubles setup, and we can talk about your diving goals, etc. It'll at least give you an idea of whether diving doubles is something you want to pursue eventually....
Rita
If you're in the Alabama area, I'd love to get together and dive with ya....you can take a look at my doubles setup, and we can talk about your diving goals, etc. It'll at least give you an idea of whether diving doubles is something you want to pursue eventually....
Rita
Dori, taking up someone like bamamedics offer could be the most productive thing for someone at your age & experience to do at this point.
Thanx Jimmer. Shame it's on the DST, I don't have any. I wonder if they'll get around to producing a version without a turret. It would certainly improve the hose routing for doubles. I'd even consider selling off my 200's & upgrading for somtheing like that.
Thanx Jimmer. Shame it's on the DST, I don't have any. I wonder if they'll get around to producing a version without a turret. It would certainly improve the hose routing for doubles. I'd even consider selling off my 200's & upgrading for somtheing like that.
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okay, no that you guys have all told me to slow down wait some time... what courses should i take in order from first to next til i get to doubles, starting with what after drysuit and AOW b/c i already have these?
oh and by the way, the only reason i wanted to start using doubles was so i could go down deeper, and stay down longer, not for the cool factor
oh and by the way, the only reason i wanted to start using doubles was so i could go down deeper, and stay down longer, not for the cool factor
I added the bold above. Assuming this thread is not a troll, what you see in bold letters above is the problem.
Again, assuming this is not a troll; according to the OP's profile, we are talking about a 14 year old diver with 25 dives. That means he is a JUNIOR DIVER. As a junior OW diver, he is certified to 75 fsw. Do we really want to be giving him advice on doubles or anything else except to relax, slow down and get more training over the next few years?
I can speak with some clarity here as my daughter Sammi is 14 --she is a terrific diver, and by far my favorite dive buddy, but she is still 14 years old and that is a perspective I never forget.
My suggestion is that everyone stop giving him advice and suggest he speak with a qualified instructor in his area.
Jeff
simmonsjr
Contributor
dori fish,
Don't be concerned solely with chasing certifications at this point. Equally important is that you simply get more experience in the water. As others have pointed out, find yourself a buddy that has a lot of dive experience and just go for it. As Jeff has pointed out you are limited on your depth until you turn fifteen and upgrade from junior Advanced Open Water to the regular AOW. If I were you, I wouldn't worry about going for any additional certifications until then.
In the mean time, dive as often as you can, in as many different conditions as you can safely dive, hang out at the dive shop and ask lots of questions. Divers love to help out other divers provided that they are truly interested in bettering their dive skills: talk to instructors, divemasters, any of the regulars (especially if you can find someone who dives doubles). The goal is to learn from others' experiences.
After you turn fifteen and have some more dives under your belt I would suggest the following progression: Peak Performance Buoyancy, Deep, Night, Underwater Navigation, Multilevel Diver. Hone your skills in each of these areas on many, many dives. Throughout this time keep asking questions of everyone you can find that dives.
Keep talking to your instructors; when they feel that you are ready for it take the Rescue Diver certification. However, be warned that rescue is not an easy course. It is physically and mentally challenging, but it will give you the skills and the confidence that you will need for more demanding diving situations.
Next go for the Enriched Air Diver certification. This is a requirement for technical dive training.
Another good option at this point is the Equipment Specialist rating. Learn all that you can about dive gear and how it works with single tank rigs; doubles are similar, but much more challenging.
After rescue, keep diving your butt off. You will not be able to do any technical dive training until after you are eighteen, so make the most of the interim time. As has been stated before you should have at least three hundred logged dives (many recommend more than that before you consider any sort of technical training.
Once you turn eighteen I would strongly recommend that you consider pursuing the divemaster program. This will give you a solid base in dive theory as well as further hone your diving skills. This will prove invaluable to you as technical level training is much more rigorous than recreational training.
I know that seems like a lot to get you into diving doubles, but each and every step will increase you ability to enjoy the underwater world. Don't look at diving as the quickest way from point A to point B; look at it as an adventure that can last you a lifetime. You can have plenty of fun at each step of the way, and as you get proficient at each step along the way, you will find that the further you go the more possibilities open up before you.
Good luck and safe diving,
Jason
Buoyant1
Contributor
Just keep diving...
Get your buoyancy dialed in, then work on it some more, then tweak it until you are perfect.
Learn your equpiment, gain your confidence with it in the water, and just keep diving with it until you know its (and your) limitations. I see you have a challenge to pick out a good BCD...since you already want to head towards the tech end of things, then any good back plate/wing set up will get you started...doesn't matter which brand...they are all primarily the same; Dive Rite, Halcyon, etc. Go read some stuff in the equipment forums. I have a Dive Rite, and love it.
Dive with good divers so you pick up good habits...diving with people that have no clue, or cut corners are not safe.
Seek out COMPETANT instructors and take a natural progression of recreational classes as your age allows them. Don't just get more cards to get cards though...AOW, Nitrox & Rescue are good to have, AOW is just an extension of OW, Nitrox, because you will need that as a pre-requisite to take advanced Nitrox when you are able to more forward, and Rescue because it's just good to have.
Peak Buoyancy is one to consider, it gives you some techniques and concepts if you are having trouble with your buoyancy.
Wreck & Deep are overviews of bigger and better things, not necessary, not complete, but they can't hurt, and it's more opportunities to experience different things (and dive more)...absorb the information and knowledge you can.
READ! There are plenty of books out there to answer a lot of questions. Different authors have written books on wreck diving, deep diving, advanced diving etc. It's all good knowledge to have! Don't substitute reading books for instruction though, these books, while informative, don't replace instruction by certified instructors, just let me make that clear! You still need to have someone evaluate your skills for your safety reasons.
Ask questions, but try to stay within perspective...you are 14, you'll get a lot of guff, but a lot of guys are really looking out for your safety, we don't want to read about you in the accidents and incidents, or worse yet the passings forum!
But above all, just keep diving...
Be safe!
Get your buoyancy dialed in, then work on it some more, then tweak it until you are perfect.
Learn your equpiment, gain your confidence with it in the water, and just keep diving with it until you know its (and your) limitations. I see you have a challenge to pick out a good BCD...since you already want to head towards the tech end of things, then any good back plate/wing set up will get you started...doesn't matter which brand...they are all primarily the same; Dive Rite, Halcyon, etc. Go read some stuff in the equipment forums. I have a Dive Rite, and love it.
Dive with good divers so you pick up good habits...diving with people that have no clue, or cut corners are not safe.
Seek out COMPETANT instructors and take a natural progression of recreational classes as your age allows them. Don't just get more cards to get cards though...AOW, Nitrox & Rescue are good to have, AOW is just an extension of OW, Nitrox, because you will need that as a pre-requisite to take advanced Nitrox when you are able to more forward, and Rescue because it's just good to have.
Peak Buoyancy is one to consider, it gives you some techniques and concepts if you are having trouble with your buoyancy.
Wreck & Deep are overviews of bigger and better things, not necessary, not complete, but they can't hurt, and it's more opportunities to experience different things (and dive more)...absorb the information and knowledge you can.
READ! There are plenty of books out there to answer a lot of questions. Different authors have written books on wreck diving, deep diving, advanced diving etc. It's all good knowledge to have! Don't substitute reading books for instruction though, these books, while informative, don't replace instruction by certified instructors, just let me make that clear! You still need to have someone evaluate your skills for your safety reasons.
Ask questions, but try to stay within perspective...you are 14, you'll get a lot of guff, but a lot of guys are really looking out for your safety, we don't want to read about you in the accidents and incidents, or worse yet the passings forum!
But above all, just keep diving...
Be safe!
A couple things have perhaps been lost in the fog of the OP being 14, etc., so lets put it in perspective.
Right now you are probably eligible to try out for the high school football team. As a rehabilitation counsleor I have met numerous people who have sufferred paraplegia or quadriplegia as a result of football injuries, but have yet to meet someone severely disabled by diving. At 16, you can drive a car - the number 1 killer of teens, mostly due to poor training lack of judgment and lack of experience. In 4 years you will have the opportunity to enlist and potentially die for your country.
In comparision, the risk of doubles is minor, and again the risk will be minimized by having good training and/or mentoring, suitable experience and good judgement.
Specifically, (and to a large degree for anyone of any age):
1. The truth is that doubles do give you a lot more gas, but in some cases no more or very little more than a single 130. So if the problem is one of not being able to monitor time, depth, etc, then don't dive anything larger than an AL 80.
2. Otherwise a set of doubles is just larger with more mass, more gas and more swing weight. If it is an older set with a single outlet manifold it is in essence just a large single. In that regard a set of double 72's or double 80's would have no more inherent risk than a single 130.
3. If it is a set of independent doubles, it could in effect be operated as a single tank with a really large pony and fewer people here would suggest a pony is dangerous to any diver.
4. If it is a set of manifolded doubles, then there are some things that may need to be learned in terms of valve management but until that occurs it can still be dove as a large single in OW environments only (which is where the OP will be diving) or with the isolator closed as independent doubles.
5. The critical issue in terms of eventual use of doubles in technical diving is to get comfortable with a back plate and wing, and a BP wing with a one piece harness is a good way for a growing diver to go as the harness stap end can be left long and the harness let out as the diver grows. Familiarity with a BP wing, even with a single tank will facilitate the transition to doubles at some point. There are one or two dual purpose wings around that can do double duty (Dive Rite Rec Wing, etc.) They are workable for both singles and doubles but not ideal, so if a diver can afford it dedicated singles and doubels wings area better way to go.
6. If you are thinking techncial diving, get into doubles early and get lots of experience with them. If you know how to get yourself properly weighted, have solid buoyancy skills, and have a BP/wing (rather than a BC that may not be very stable with doubles) then transitioning to doubles is not all that hard. The big issues are the slightly greater mass and the greater swing weight, which means early in the dive you will have more gas in the BC, which requires much better bouyancy control and awareness of what that extra gas is doing and will require with even small changes in depth.
7. The need to avoid any extra gas in the wing is why you need to ensure you are properly weighted. Any overweighting increases the bubble you have to control, while at the other extreme you must be able to hold a 10' stop with near empty tanks wheere you should be neutral with no gas at all in the wing.
8. Doubles in and of themselves are not dangerous, they just provide you with more gas and more potential opportunity to exceed the NDL's. But to exceed the NDL's within your 60 to 75' OW Jr. limit, with doubles will require extreme inattention to your spg and dive timer or computer, or simply an intent to go deep and push the NDL's and that sort of poor judgment will be present even with a single tank. You could argue it both ways, but I'd prefer my son to have more gas along if he chose to have a stupid attack. But frankly that should not happen as the OP is already required to dive with an adult who is certified, and one of their main roles is to curb lapses in judgment.
9. In any case you need to be very comfortable in doubles before showing up in your first tech class. It will allow you to actually absorb what is taught in the class, rather than being excessively task loaded trying to learn to dive doubles while also attempting to learn the course specific skills. I suspect the latter does more to promote the myth that doubles are hard to dive than almost any other single factor.
10. Next course wise, rescue makes a great deal of sense. I am not a fan of DM classes - I have seen what those classes turn out and little of that will help you in technical diving. Nitrox is worth having as a prerequisite to Advanced Nitrox and Deco procedures - normally your first real techncial divign classes. Some places offer Into to Tech classes, and the value depends entirely on the instructor.
11. If you can find a competent techncial diver in the area to buddy with on recreational or quarry dives, they can provide you a lot more in terms of mentoring to assist in configuration and transitioning to doubles than a short Intro to Tech class. Similarly, mentoring is a good way to learn to frog kick, back kick, shoot a lift bag, run a reel, etc and all are skills that will prove valuable later and are not dependent on having and using doubles.
Right now you are probably eligible to try out for the high school football team. As a rehabilitation counsleor I have met numerous people who have sufferred paraplegia or quadriplegia as a result of football injuries, but have yet to meet someone severely disabled by diving. At 16, you can drive a car - the number 1 killer of teens, mostly due to poor training lack of judgment and lack of experience. In 4 years you will have the opportunity to enlist and potentially die for your country.
In comparision, the risk of doubles is minor, and again the risk will be minimized by having good training and/or mentoring, suitable experience and good judgement.
Specifically, (and to a large degree for anyone of any age):
1. The truth is that doubles do give you a lot more gas, but in some cases no more or very little more than a single 130. So if the problem is one of not being able to monitor time, depth, etc, then don't dive anything larger than an AL 80.
2. Otherwise a set of doubles is just larger with more mass, more gas and more swing weight. If it is an older set with a single outlet manifold it is in essence just a large single. In that regard a set of double 72's or double 80's would have no more inherent risk than a single 130.
3. If it is a set of independent doubles, it could in effect be operated as a single tank with a really large pony and fewer people here would suggest a pony is dangerous to any diver.
4. If it is a set of manifolded doubles, then there are some things that may need to be learned in terms of valve management but until that occurs it can still be dove as a large single in OW environments only (which is where the OP will be diving) or with the isolator closed as independent doubles.
5. The critical issue in terms of eventual use of doubles in technical diving is to get comfortable with a back plate and wing, and a BP wing with a one piece harness is a good way for a growing diver to go as the harness stap end can be left long and the harness let out as the diver grows. Familiarity with a BP wing, even with a single tank will facilitate the transition to doubles at some point. There are one or two dual purpose wings around that can do double duty (Dive Rite Rec Wing, etc.) They are workable for both singles and doubles but not ideal, so if a diver can afford it dedicated singles and doubels wings area better way to go.
6. If you are thinking techncial diving, get into doubles early and get lots of experience with them. If you know how to get yourself properly weighted, have solid buoyancy skills, and have a BP/wing (rather than a BC that may not be very stable with doubles) then transitioning to doubles is not all that hard. The big issues are the slightly greater mass and the greater swing weight, which means early in the dive you will have more gas in the BC, which requires much better bouyancy control and awareness of what that extra gas is doing and will require with even small changes in depth.
7. The need to avoid any extra gas in the wing is why you need to ensure you are properly weighted. Any overweighting increases the bubble you have to control, while at the other extreme you must be able to hold a 10' stop with near empty tanks wheere you should be neutral with no gas at all in the wing.
8. Doubles in and of themselves are not dangerous, they just provide you with more gas and more potential opportunity to exceed the NDL's. But to exceed the NDL's within your 60 to 75' OW Jr. limit, with doubles will require extreme inattention to your spg and dive timer or computer, or simply an intent to go deep and push the NDL's and that sort of poor judgment will be present even with a single tank. You could argue it both ways, but I'd prefer my son to have more gas along if he chose to have a stupid attack. But frankly that should not happen as the OP is already required to dive with an adult who is certified, and one of their main roles is to curb lapses in judgment.
9. In any case you need to be very comfortable in doubles before showing up in your first tech class. It will allow you to actually absorb what is taught in the class, rather than being excessively task loaded trying to learn to dive doubles while also attempting to learn the course specific skills. I suspect the latter does more to promote the myth that doubles are hard to dive than almost any other single factor.
10. Next course wise, rescue makes a great deal of sense. I am not a fan of DM classes - I have seen what those classes turn out and little of that will help you in technical diving. Nitrox is worth having as a prerequisite to Advanced Nitrox and Deco procedures - normally your first real techncial divign classes. Some places offer Into to Tech classes, and the value depends entirely on the instructor.
11. If you can find a competent techncial diver in the area to buddy with on recreational or quarry dives, they can provide you a lot more in terms of mentoring to assist in configuration and transitioning to doubles than a short Intro to Tech class. Similarly, mentoring is a good way to learn to frog kick, back kick, shoot a lift bag, run a reel, etc and all are skills that will prove valuable later and are not dependent on having and using doubles.
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