How useful is RAW to the lazy/unskilled?

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The RAW vs/ JPEG issue could be argued forever. It all depends on what the OP really wants AND how much difference a few hundred $$ means to him. To some people that's a lot of money, others not so much. I used to shoot a A620 and got some decent photos. I've now moved to a G9 and shoot in RAW. I agree that many aspects of a good photo are much more important than the RAW vs. JPEG issue, but that being said everything else being equal I prefer my RAW images and what I can do with them much over the JPEG images. Heck the bigger LCD screen on the G9 was worth it for me.

If you want to keep cost down then get an A series and Canon housing for around $400, if you want more options particularly the ability to grow with the camera spend $700 and get the G10 and Canon (or even better) housing. Either way you can take good photos to show people what you see undwerwater.

I don't regret starting with the A620 (someone gave it to me so all I had to buy was the $149 housing) but unless that few extra hundred $$$ is a deal breaker I recommend to people to start with the G10.

I couldn't agree more. Let me go back and address the OP's question directly instead of waxing philosophical about RAW.

With your existing P&S cameras, hacking them to take photos in RAW and then processing them to try and produce something as good as you can get out of the camera is likely to lead to frustration since you say you are "lazy." :D While you can get RAW out of these cameras with the hack, because it is a hack, it's not easy and the software tools are not well tuned. So forget about that for sure. (I know, I tried it. I had a hacked A620 previously.)

If you generally are trying to adjust your photos in some way with Elements, you probably won't find adjusting a RAW file any more difficult. And you can improve your workflow, I suspect, if you use something like Lightroom, Aperture, or maybe Picasa. LR and Aperture allow you to adjust lots of photos at once (select them all and apply WB correction or auto exposure to all of them with one click). I don't know about Picassa.

If you don't want to mess with your photos, forget about RAW, obviously.

Now, should you drop your existing cameras and run out and buy a new one? I doubt it. I too think you might get more satisfaction trying to work with what you've got than upgrading.

Do what I did, upgrade *after* you drop your old camera and the current sweeps it to god knows where. :D
 
Zero downside? Filling up memory cards and hard drives with photo info that one will never use. Wasting CPU cycles on editing large RAW files when you could be working on high-quality JPEGs. Probably purchasing a more expensive camera than you need...and exposing it to risk of flooding. I wouldn't call it "zero downside."

OK - the costs of a memory card are trivial, you can delete the RAW files post processing (and hard drive space is incredibly cheap anyway), CPU cycles is a patently ridiculous argument (I have a 4 year old PC and it takes no longer to edit RAW than JPG). Your only point might be only the cost of the camera; I would argue that it is well worth buying a camera that will grow with you rather than nickling and diming to get something with a limited function set that WILL crimp your results.
 
I'd like to say 'Thanks' to all the people who participated in this thread; it gives me a lot to think about. One thing I'll be looked at is the difference in price between the different setups; after all, the price of a G-10 + Canon housing looks steep, but it's not a whole lot more than some of the other camera + manufacturer housing setups.

I picked up an 8 gig class 6 Kingston SDHD card on sale via DealMac.com (which has done well at alerting me to online deals from reputable vendors). So that's what I plan to use for on camera storage. How fast it'll fill up with pics + video on a couple of Bonaire shore dives remains to be seen (last time I didn't shoot any video; not sure how much I may fool with it this time).

Richard.
 
OP - any of the Canon options you are looking at should meet your needs very well. I personally would head to the G10 (the G9 if I could lay hands on one)

Between the two, I'd go with the G10 for two reasons. First, it has a 28mm lens on the low end of the zoom instead of 35mm. Second, Canon's DPP software will process the RAW files.

The only advantage the G9 may have over the G10 is less megapixels (yes, you read right). But with the bump from a Digic III to Digic IV chip, that may not be an advantage. I don't know; I'd need to see a well done head to head comparison to decide.

Less MP is definitely an advantage when dealing with the resulting images since they are smaller. I'm talking about absolute image quality.
 
Great thread. Thanks. I'm looking for an "Enthusiast" digital compact UW cam as well, and want to shoot RAW, which seems to limit the choices considerably. I got really exited about the Panasonic LX3 until I realized the cost of the limited housing options =:0

Just a few comments on a few of the points raised/questions asked;

I work with medical imaging and *finally* started shooting RAW+JPEG. Man, what a relief ... I clearly see a difference in the quality of my tweaked images now that I can work with RAW.

I've had fun getting into RAW using a hacked Canon A650IS. It's a bit fiddly, since it *is* a hack, but it works just fine. The camera is a bit slow in saving both RAW+JPEG, but manageable. I'm hoping a camera made to record RAW will be faster? Great camera overall though.

I have the full Adobe CS3 package available, but still turn to Elements 6 for Mac, for some of the simpler image editing tasks. That said, I need to download demos of Lightroom and Aperture to try out as well.

Henrik
 
When a RAW is converted to JPG, information is thrown away. If the camera assumes the white balance is "normal" and not underwater, then in the red channel it is going to throw away the lowest 2 to 6 bits of information. However, because the red is so screwed up, rather than leaving 8 bits of information like it does above water, you may only have 4-5 bits of red info. Let's say 4 for illustration purposes.

Now, if you try to correct that resulting JPG, you are going to take those 4 bits and try to stretch them back into 8 bits. That means multiplying whatever red is in the photo by 16 (2 to the 4th power). And that doesn't work too well.

Instead lets go back to the RAW file and assume it is a 12 bit camera. That same photo will be missing the same top 4 bits of red the JPEG was, so we have 8 bits left. Lets assume (realistically) the lowest bit is noise. That leaves us with 7 bits of real info. Now we have to stretch that 7 bits into 8 to get a nice JPEG. That means multiplying the amount of red by 2, not 16. This is a much easier task.

That's why the reds are so much richer in the photo that started with RAW as opposed to the other one.

If you want to see this in action, take a look at the exposure histograms while trying to correct a JPG that's seriously off in WB. In the red channel you will see lots of 1-bin spikes which tells you you are trying to stretch nothing into something.

@vondo: Thanks for bringing up the concept of bit-depth. I enjoyed your clear explanation of loss of red color info and how this might result in the RAW-white balanced image being superior to the JPEG-white balanced image (even if the images being discussed here weren't really generated appropriately to make an apples-to-apples comparison). I think I follow your reasoning above. Essentially, your example describes color adjustment by using the Levels tool in the Red channel. The "stretching" you talk about is akin to resetting the black point and white point levels, right? Thus, the quality of the color adjustment is limited by the scarce red channel info. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

You should know that the JPEG-white balance Photoshop Action which Peter_Guy used does not utilize Levels in this way. I can't be 100% certain about this since several Actions are out there floating around on the WWW, but I'm pretty sure his method reconstructs a red channel from the original image as a luminosity layer merged back onto a 50% gray layer. Similarly, other Red Color Correction Photoshop Actions reconstruct the red channel from the green or blue channel. I just can't be sure which specific method was used. In any case, my point is that the lack of red color information in the original JPEG might not be responsible for an inferior color correction. In stealing picture info from the entire image (or maybe just the green/blue channel), the range of red color in the adjusted image is not limited by the dearth of captured red color in the original JPEG. Whew! Did I lose anyone there? Suffice it to say that there are lots of ways to "white balance" a photo.
 
@vondo: Thanks for bringing up the concept of bit-depth. I enjoyed your clear explanation of loss of red color info and how this might result in the RAW-white balanced image being superior to the JPEG-white balanced image (even if the images being discussed here weren't really generated appropriately to make an apples-to-apples comparison). I think I follow your reasoning above. Essentially, your example describes color adjustment by using the Levels tool in the Red channel. The "stretching" you talk about is akin to resetting the black point and white point levels, right? Thus, the quality of the color adjustment is limited by the scarce red channel info. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

You should know that the JPEG-white balance Photoshop Action which Peter_Guy used does not utilize Levels in this way. I can't be 100% certain about this since several Actions are out there floating around on the WWW, but I'm pretty sure his method reconstructs a red channel from the original image as a luminosity layer merged back onto a 50% gray layer. Similarly, other Red Color Correction Photoshop Actions reconstruct the red channel from the green or blue channel. I just can't be sure which specific method was used. In any case, my point is that the lack of red color information in the original JPEG might not be responsible for an inferior color correction. In stealing picture info from the entire image (or maybe just the green/blue channel), the range of red color in the adjusted image is not limited by the dearth of captured red color in the original JPEG. Whew! Did I lose anyone there? Suffice it to say that there are lots of ways to "white balance" a photo.

I think a strict WB correction does do basically that, "stretching." Often there is an assumption that there is a point in the photo that "should be" black and another that "should be" white.

But I don't doubt that you can do somewhat better than just stretching whatever info is there, but you can't just reconstruct the red out of nothing. There has to be something there to work with in the first place. And there is also no question that there is more red channel information in a RAW photo from a decent camera than there is in a jpg photo. And considering how much red is lost underwater (90% or more) there is no question for me. Shoot RAW if you can.

Topside it's a different story since the corrections are much more subtle. I don't think I'd ever choose a G10 over an A series if that was my application. (I shoot a DSLR that I'm too cheap to house, so that point is kind of moot.)
 
I'd like to correct a couple of misconceptions about RAW & JPG capabilities. I'm an electrical engineer who designs digital cameras, and I've also written JPG compression algorithms. The following information applies to standard JPG (& not jpg2000 which is not available in the majority of cameras anyway).

As others have correctly said, RAW keeps all of the raw pixel information, whereas JPG throws some of that information away. It's the WHAT that gets thrown away in JPG that's of great importance for underwater white balance.

First off, it's important to understand that at depth, red photons are *reduced* by the water column, but they're not removed entirely. There *are* red photons; it's just that there are a lot fewer of them at depth, which is why JPG photos appear blue. For that matter, non-white-balanced RAW images look blue too.

If you look at a RAW image taken under water, there is information (non-zero values) in the red pixels; it's just that they're a great deal fainter (dimmer, lesser intensity, whatever word you prefer) than if that same photo was taken above water.

So, with that understanding, let's now consider JPG encoding that image. You can think of JPG as being a 2-stage process. The first stage is to break the image into a luminance (brightness) field and a chrominance (colour) field. The luminance is like "black & white", whereas the chrominance is colour information. Typically the luminance field is kept as-is, whereas the chrominance field is reduced by 2, ie, every second line is thrown away. In this way we keep our full image resolution (in black & white thanks to the luminance field) and we keep a good estimation of our colour information (thanks to the now cut down chrominance field) while reducing our data size.

This works because our eyes are more sensitive to brightness (luminance) than colour (chrominance). So we can throw away some colour information without our eyes really noticing it.

Of course, we've just tossed away half of our colour information, and in the case of red we don't have much to begin with! This is not necessarily a great idea if we want to white balance an underwater photo later.

That was JPG stage 1. At the end of stage 1 half of the colour information has been tossed. Now we do stage 2.

In stage 2, for each of the two fields (luminance & chrominance) we perform a frequency analysis, where essentially "small things" are thrown away. When it comes to the chrominance field, this is where a lot of the remaining red gets discarded, because it's low intensity to begin with, and thus not very noticeable in the (mainly blue) image.

The end result of all this, as you can probably see, is that for underwater images we start with a greatly reduced amount of red-colour information, and then the JPG compression process naturally throws most of what little there is away. The end result is blue JPG images. But more importantly, they are blue JPG images with precious little red data in them, so post-processing the JPG image (in picasa or photoshop or whatever) to colour-balance it works fairly poorly. We've seen that in the example images earlier in this thread, where the JPG barracuda & shrimp images were white-balanced, but much less successfully than the RAW images were.

The simple fact is, to get a good white balance, you need information in all three colour channels (red, green & blue). Underwater we naturally have a shortage of red, and then JPG throws away most of what little red we do get. Not a great combination.

If you're going to insist on shooting only JPG images underwater, it's critical you do manual white-balances underwater (by balancing against the sand, or a white slate, or something). In that way you're telling the camera "bump up all my red values before doing the JPG compression". If you don't, and shoot a bunch of blue images, you'll never be able to white-balance the resulting JPGs later on in photoshop with remotely the same degree of accuracy as if you'd simply shot the image in RAW to begin with.

Changing gears slightly, others have correctly pointed out that shooting RAW allows you to pull detail out of shadows that cannot be done from JPG. That is correct, and is due to the 8-bit quantisation that's performed within the JPG algorithm. It's that same reason that gives RAW the ability to correct minor over or under exposures where JPG cannot.

I'm not going to tell the OP he should or should not be shooting in JPG; it's an individual choice. I can tell you that on land I shoot JPG. But underwater I shoot RAW. With 4 GB SD cards costing just a few dollars; with free programs like picasa supporting RAW; with not having to bother messing around doing white balances underwater; it's plain & simple both easier & better.

I hope this helps.
 
OK - the costs of a memory card are trivial, you can delete the RAW files post processing (and hard drive space is incredibly cheap anyway), CPU cycles is a patently ridiculous argument (I have a 4 year old PC and it takes no longer to edit RAW than JPG). Your only point might be only the cost of the camera; I would argue that it is well worth buying a camera that will grow with you rather than nickling and diming to get something with a limited function set that WILL crimp your results.
@Geoff_H: I value your input, and I'll admit my discussion of "zero downside" was a little flippant. I have a tendency to cringe whenever someone speaks in absolutes. Yes, memory cards are dirt cheap. I'll also agree that my comment regarding parsimonious CPU use might be...well...a little far-fetched. In practice, there is no opportunity cost for unused CPU cycles...unless they can be re-purposed for a riveting game of minesweeper or solitaire. :D
In principle, I agree with your advice to buy a system that can "grow with you," especially when there's only a modest price difference. There's been a lot of discussion about the Canon G9/10 being such a camera. Although I'm sure that the G9/10 is a capable camera, when I look at the included feature set, I just see limitations - depth of field, smaller sensor, etc. If the upgrade path for UW photog ultimately leads to a DSLR setup, why not use a cheap Canon A series camera to learn how to futz with all of manual features? One could even dip a toe into the world of RAW post-processing using the CHDK hack. And then, after saving a lot of loose change in the piggy bank, finally purchase a DSLR setup. That's been my approach...but I have been willing to put the time and effort into the hobby. Most might be content to never upgrade beyond a prosumer-level G9/10.

I realize this is probably off-topic, but why do DSLR UW housings cost so much? Is it really a supply-demand thing? $1,000+ seems really excessive for what it is. This has been the main obstacle for me upgrading to a DSLR. *sigh*
 
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I'd like to correct a couple of misconceptions about RAW & JPG capabilities. I'm an electrical engineer who designs digital cameras, and I've also written JPG compression algorithms. The following information applies to standard JPG (& not jpg2000 which is not available in the majority of cameras anyway).

Great post and better than anything I've seen anywhere on how the JPEG conversion is done. Thanks!
 
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