How's your SAC?

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Well, from reading this thread i am assuming that SAC is some measurement of how much air/gas you breathe? People actually calculate this?
Do air integrated computers do this ( i know they tell you theoretically how much air you have left at certain depths and breathing rates but do they give you this SAC rate you are talking about as well?) or are you actually keeping detailed logs of how much time you spent at what depth and how much air you went through at that depth?
 
Mike Veitch:
Well, from reading this thread i am assuming that SAC is some measurement of how much air/gas you breathe? People actually calculate this?
Do air integrated computers do this ( i know they tell you theoretically how much air you have left at certain depths and breathing rates but do they give you this SAC rate you are talking about as well?) or are you actually keeping detailed logs of how much time you spent at what depth and how much air you went through at that depth?


Yes, It's good practice to know how long you can make a tank last at a given depth.

If you want to go to say 200' and stay 25 minutes and run rule of 3rds it's a good to know how much gas to take. Then you need an idea as to how much gas it will take to do the deco so you carry enough but aren't way overkill. etc etc etc.
 
Mike,
Most AI computers, from what I read about the different mfg's, give you your "bottom time remaining" based on your current level of gas consumption. Keep in mind that this calculation is based on a depth/respiration specific correlation. It tells you more or less, "OK, buddy, if you stay at this depth with this tank pressure and breathing this quickly you have only 2 minutes of bottom time left."

The SAC (surface air consumption) rate is a calculation based on the average depth/respiration profile of the dive. Knowing how much gas you use in a general dive environment can help you plan your dive.

The SAC can be computed as follows:

SAC =
(((Pb-Pe)/Pb)x((Pb/Pw)xV)/T)/((D/33)+1)

where:
Pb = Beginning pressure
Pe = Ending pressure
Pw = Nominal working pressure of the tank
V = Volume of tank in cubic feet
T = Time of dive in minutes
D = Average depth of dive in feet

One thing you can do to get an even more accurate computation of your SAC is to check the pressure of your tank after you get into the water to adjust for psi fluctuations due to indicated pressure differences between a warm and cool tank.

SAC's will vary greatly. The one I mentioned earlier was on a recovery dive where I was slowly trolling the bottom of a marina looking for a lost boat panel. I was hardly moving due to the visibility and silt conditions at the bottom. I hardly felt as if I were diving at all.

Start pushing some heavy weight around underwater and your SAC will spike right through the roof.

The SAC is not an "absolute have to be able to calculate it" thing for diving, but it's a nice tool to have.

For example, the following SAC rates will let you dive these tanks at these depths for these times with a 500 psi reserve (Note: these calculations do not allow for differences in temperatures, task loading, anxiety, etc.):

SAC Tank Depth / Time
0.40 130 60' / 1:38
. . . .120 60' / 1:30
. . . .Al 80 60' / 0:57

0.45 130 60' / 1:28
. . . .120 60' / 1:20
. . . .Al 80 60' / 0:50

0.50 130 60' / 1:19
. . . .120 60' / 1:12
. . . .Al 80 60' / 0:45
. . . . . and so on
the K
 
Charlie99,
That's why I love my Citizen Hyper Aqualand - it gives me my average depth for the entire dive and the dive time. That average depth includes all safety/deco stops, etc.
Makes it easy . . .

Good explanation, by the way . . .

the K
 
Oops a misunderstanding of sorts. Wanted to know diff of SAC and computer
You know, for the life of me i couldn't figure out the S in SAC, figured AC for what it was but the S? Haven't taught any courses other than photo/video since 99. Too much nitrogen i assume, so guess i have forgotten. You sure they have this in Advanced class? I don't ever remember teaching someone how to calculate a breathing rate and that equation def doesn't look familiar
And in all truth, i have never seen anyone actually figure this out ahead of a dive. Everyone just goes diving, when they get to 1000 psi they tell us, when they get to 500 they better be on their safety stop. Seems to me an awful lot of info to try figuring out on a dive. That is why i ask that people figure this out, i am too busy looking at stuff to figure out things like that.
As i said, a lot of computers theoretically figure this out, and then annoyingly beep when they think you are over the limit of breathing, most people ignore this. That is why i wanted clarification if this is what the computer was figuring out or if SAC was something different

Thanks for the clarification
 
Mike Veitch:
Oops a misunderstanding of sorts. Wanted to know diff of SAC and computer
If you dive a lot, particularly if they are similar profiles, then it all becomes intuitive. I suspect that's the case with you.

I use a simplified air consumption calculation to see if a proposed dive profile makes sense, the same way I'll look at an RDP or wheel to see if a certain multilevel profile makes sense from a decompression point of view. It may sound complicated in this post, but once you've done it a few times, it's almost automatic.

Take the case where I'm on a boat in Maui and the DM says "OK, the profile is going to be 130' for 7 minutes, 80' for 10 minutes, then 50' for another 15 minutes." Is this profile within air NDLs? Does an AL80 hold enough air for me to do this dive? Running the profile through the wheel or my flat table equivalent quickly shows that the dive is within NDL. Air consumption takes a bit more calculation. An assumed consumption rate, or SAC is a vital part of that calculation.

I do calculations in a slightly different fashion than I've seen taught .... I convert all depths and times to the equivalent times on the surface. In 1 minute at 100'/4ata you will breathe out of your tank the same amount of air that you would use in 4 minutes on the surface. I just call this 4 "surface minutes" or 4 ata-minutes. Similarly 5 minutes at 66'/3ata would consume 5*3 = 15 ata-minutes.

An AL80 holds 77.4cu ft. If you hold the last 500psi in reserve, that leaves you 65cu ft. If you have an SAC of 1 cubic foot per minute, that 65 cu ft obviously would last you 65 minutes on the surface. At 0.75CFM SAC, it would be about 90 minutes on the surface. Doing the whole dive on the surface isn't much fun, but you can readily see that 90 minutes of air on the surface is equivalent to 90/2 = 45 minutes at 33' or 2ata; or 90/3 = 30 minutes at 66'/3ata.

OK, but it's not quite that simple. If I went to 66' for 30 minutes, then I won't have any air allocated for my ascent and stops (other than that 500psi backup reserve). Let's see how many surface-minute-equivalents a standard ascent/deep stop/safety stop will take (One advantage of figuring out "surface minutes" instead of cubic feet is that one can easily adjust for different SAC later).

My most common ascent is something along the line of:
1 minute at 40'
1 minute at 25'
3 minutes at 15'
with 30fpm ascents between stops.
40' is 2.2 ata. 25' is 1.76ata, 15' is about 1.5ata. The ascent is 4/3 minute at 20' average depth.

2.2+1.8+(3*1.5)+(4/3*1.6) = 11 ata-minutes. In other words, I will consume the same amount of air during my 40' and above stops and ascent as I would hanging out on the surface for 11 minutes. NOTE: you only need to do this calculation ONE time, using whatever deep stops, ascent rate, and safety stop you choose.

Similarly, you can do the calculations for the ascent prior to starting this 40' and shallower sequence. For example, a 30fpm ascent from 100' to 40' will take 2 minutes at an average depth of 70'. 2 minutes * 3ata = 6 ata-minutes. Obviously, an ascent to 40' from shallower than 100' will take less air.

--------

OK, now that we've done these preliminary, 1 time only calculations, you can start putting it all together.

An AL80 is 65cf after subtracting a 500psi reserve. 65cf/0.75cfm= 87 ata-minutes of air. My ascent and stops from 40' upward will take 11 ata-minutes, leaving 76 ata-min for the dive. Let's see if 7@130, 10@80, 15@50 is a doable profile.

130'(5ata) for 7 minutes uses 35 ata-minutes.
80'(3.4ata) for 10 minutes uses another 35 ata-minutes
50'(2.5ata) for 15 minutes uses another 38 ata-minutes.
ignore 50' to 40' ascent.
Total of 108 ata-minutes vs. 76 available. Ain't gonna work.

OTOH, 65cf at 0.5cfm = 130 ata-minutes. or about 120 minutes before stops, so at 0.5cfm that profile will work.
-----------------------
Note that this sort of calculation also works backwards.

I need 11 ata-minutes for my normal ascent and stops from 40'. At 0.5cfm this is 11*0.5=5.5cf. In an AL80, there are 39psi/cf, so I'll need a bit less than 6x40=240psi for my ascent and stops. I want to be at 40' with 740psi

It's easy to redo with a different SAC.


-----------------

It may sound complicated, but

1. A lot of this stuff only needs to be calculated one time, and
2. in practice I use a lot cruder rounding off than shown in this example.
3. After you have done this a few times, you may find yourself putting together your dive "backwards"..... 500psi on the surface, add 240psi for stops 40' and above, 120psi for my ascent 100' to 40' -- I need 860psi for my normal ascent and reserve from 100'. (My alternate calculation of my rock bottom for air sharing with an excited buddy sets a higher min ascent pressure in this case, but rock bottom is a whole other discussion).
 
Mike Veitch:
Oops a misunderstanding of sorts. Wanted to know diff of SAC and computer
You know, for the life of me i couldn't figure out the S in SAC, figured AC for what it was but the S? Haven't taught any courses other than photo/video since 99. Too much nitrogen i assume, so guess i have forgotten. You sure they have this in Advanced class? I don't ever remember teaching someone how to calculate a breathing rate and that equation def doesn't look familiar
And in all truth, i have never seen anyone actually figure this out ahead of a dive. Everyone just goes diving, when they get to 1000 psi they tell us, when they get to 500 they better be on their safety stop. Seems to me an awful lot of info to try figuring out on a dive. That is why i ask that people figure this out, i am too busy looking at stuff to figure out things like that.
As i said, a lot of computers theoretically figure this out, and then annoyingly beep when they think you are over the limit of breathing, most people ignore this. That is why i wanted clarification if this is what the computer was figuring out or if SAC was something different

Thanks for the clarification

Don't sweat it Mike. It's not part of the PADI curriculum for AOW so you may not have taught it. Nowadays everyone wants to be a "tech" diver so these calculation have been adapted from tech programs. I had never heard of it either until I began tech training in 2000 but today some instructors are bringing technical disciplines into recreational programs.
 
Mike Veitch:
Do air integrated computers do this?
After downloading dives from my Uwatec Air-X Nitrox to my PC, I can view SAC and maximum SAC in the "dive profile" window of my log. Snapping pictures in warm tropical water without current, mine is a consistent .5 cu ft/min.
 
Thanks for all the tips and advice folks. After 28 dives I'm down to the .7 - .8 range so it looks like I've got a ways to go.
 

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