i tried to fly out today and i ended up being bent

[buff]

Was it pretty much consensus this was a PFO?

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Was it pretty much consensus this was a PFO?

@buff: How can there be a "consensus this was a PFO" if the OP was never tested for a PFO?

Even if he had been tested for PFO, it wouldn't prove causality.
Bear in mind that it is estimated that 10 - 20% of the overall adult population is believed to have a persistent PFO, whereas less than 0.1% of all divers are afflicted with the bends.

Although the symptoms described by the OP in this thread may be consistent with neurological symptoms associated with DCS, I'm still not 100% certain that the OP actually experienced a DCS hit, based on the dive profiles described and other details regarding his air travel. I think he was nervous about diving...and very anxious about flying after diving. He is a very inexperienced diver who, it appears, probably didn't have a strong grasp of what causes nitrogen-loading, the details of decompression theory, and risk factors for DCS. And I say these things not to imply that inexperienced divers cannot experience a DCS hit. To the contrary, it certainly happens, although it's very, very rare. Moreover, he is certainly motivated to come up with a good reason for making a commercial flight turn around once it was in the air. Many people were inconvenienced and quite possibly this maneuver cost other people lots of money (airline, other travelers on the same plane, travelers on the same plane's connecting flights, etc.).

If the OP did, in fact, experience a DCS hit, it certainly classifies him as an "outlier" in terms of DCS susceptibility. For whatever reason, he is more predisposed to DCS than most of the other divers out there. He would be wise to take all reasonable precautions to limit nitrogen-loading and optimize decompression if he insists on diving in the future.

 

[Blastman4444]

@buff: How can there be a "consensus this was a PFO" if the OP was never tested for a PFO?

Even if he had been tested for PFO, it wouldn't prove causality.
Bear in mind that it is estimated that 10 - 20% of the overall adult population is believed to have a persistent PFO, whereas less than 0.1% of all divers are afflicted with the bends.

Although the symptoms described by the OP in this thread may be consistent with neurological symptoms associated with DCS, I'm still not 100% certain that the OP actually experienced a DCS hit, based on the dive profiles described and other details regarding his air travel. I think he was nervous about diving...and very anxious about flying after diving. He is a very inexperienced diver who, it appears, probably didn't have a strong grasp of what causes nitrogen-loading, the details of decompression theory, and risk factors for DCS. And I say these things not to imply that inexperienced divers cannot experience a DCS hit. To the contrary, it certainly happens, although it's very, very rare. Moreover, he is certainly motivated to come up with a good reason for making a commercial flight turn around once it was in the air. Many people were inconvenienced and quite possibly this maneuver cost other people lots of money (airline, other travelers on the same plane, travelers on the same plane's connecting flights, etc.).

If the OP did, in fact, experience a DCS hit, it certainly classifies him as an "outlier" in terms of DCS susceptibility. For whatever reason, he is more predisposed to DCS than most of the other divers out there. He would be wise to take all reasonable precautions to limit nitrogen-loading and optimize decompression if he insists on diving in the future.

Wow still talking about this I guess new people keep coming along I think I have set the record straight a few times. I was never anxious about flying, or diving. I don't know why you keep saying I was anxious about flying, or diving? What do you think I made this all up because I'm afraid to fly! You don't know me if you did you would never imply that. If no one ever got DCS from flying too soon after diving then why do they even have a wait time at all because divers have gotten DCS from flying and even driving over mountains.

I had concern about flying the next day after diving at the time I place the reservation with the dive shop in keywest 2 days prior they thought it should be okay I told them my flight leaves at 7:20am the following morning. They said at the time I would do 100 foot dive then a shallow 35 foot reef dive, and the my Time till I fly the next day should be enough. The shop also said because I was not Advanced I would pay for a guide which turned out to be a DM. When we got to the Vandenberg we dove on the ship 100' each 2 times because the water was so clear not the 2nd shallow dive at this point 2 days later I wasn't thinking about flying the next day I was thinking about the dive my first dive to 100 feet I had been to 88 feet before in Grand Cayman. My main concern was air consumption plus other issues I had been experincing with dry throat and uncomfortable reg's that I had rented in GC the year before. This time I owned my reg and with adjustable pressure none of these issues were a problem. In fact the dives I felt more comfortable then I had ever felt diving.

I got back to the dock at about 12 noon I went straight back to the hotel in Keywest then we drove back to Fort Lauderdale on the way I stopped in Marathon and took a scenic helicopter flight we went no higher then 500'. We stopped a bunch of times and didn't make it back to the hotel at the Fort Lauderdale airport until midnight. We had to leave the hotel to return the car by 6am so we could make our 7:20 flight back to Phoenix. Didn't get to bed until 3am after cleaning out the car and other things. We got up late and barely made it we walked to the gate about 6:45am. We sit down in 2nd row in first class and now I can relax and get some sleep the plane takes off I say to my wife that it seemed we were ascending faster then usual you could feel the Gforce more then normal. When we got to about 8 minutes after take off I told my wife I feel strange. I felt a very strange sensation like weakness on the left side of my body. You have to remember up until this point I wasn't even thinking about DCS risk because I had been so focused on getting on the plane. I felt very uncomfortable I told my wife I don't feel good something is wrong now I'm worried and getting concerned because DCS symptoms are starting, and I remember from my training the symptoms. I feel pain moving around in the lower part of the back of my head near the base of my skull it's hard to descibe. Weakness was the first symptom I felt like a switch it was nothing like I have ever felt before. I start to feel tingling in my left hand which starts to progress up my left arm. Then my right arm starts my wife says my skin color is white as a sheet at this point. I hit the flight attendant button and they come over I tell them what was going on and I suspected DCS. They get me 02 right away by this time they call for a doctor some woman comes up and I describe the symptoms she confirms it looks like DCS she is a local Florida ER doctor. Now It's progressing to all limbs I repeatedly ask the flight attendant to please have the pilot descend lower the o2 doesn't seem to be doing much but it's not getting worse.
After some time the Doctor comes back and tells me that they asked her if she thought if they should land, and she told them yes we need to land. We go back to FLL and I'm taken off by a waiting medics into a ambulance they tell my wife we are going to ST Marys in West Palm beach . When the plane got back close to the ground the symptoms begin to recede back down to just my lower legs and left hand. They fly me by helicopter during that flight I start to experience some chest pain could have been acid reflux I get it sometimes but who knows not sure how high they were flying. The total cost to us was about an extra $4000 not including medical which was $1000 out of pocket I don't think I would make this up because I was anxious about flying to blow an extra $5k.

I have taken aerobatic flying ride in a pitts special way better then any roller coaster. I even took the biplane ride in Keywest when our seaplane to Fort Jefferson got cancelled and we did a few maneuvers as he put it a couple of wings overs and a wing over decent transition into a one wheel landing in a 1930's biplane fun ride well worth the money. As far as PFO who knows DAN, and other doctors don't think it was maybe I can talk my doctor into getting the test just for peace of mind. That's what happened and it's the truth I didn't make it up I'm not crazy I'm actually a person that hardly ever panics about anything. Why it happened could have been 2 deep dives min surface interval, 60FPM ascent should be 30FPM, dehydration, and sleep deprived stressed trying to get to make the flight.

The funny part when we flew out a week later we sat in the exact same seats except I sat at the window and my wife had the isle this time. Take this for what you want I'm not giving advice here if you look into DCS it's not clear cut no one knows how there body's will handle nitrogen loading until they load it. One thing I learned was O2 works it made a difference for me. I went off it for about 5 minutes before I got into the chamber and I could feel the symptoms come back. After the chamber treatment I was left with tingling in my lower legs which was gone the next day. I think this has been beaten to death we are planning or next trip soon, and I plan on diving again not below 65 feet.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Kel490,

One of the side effects of post is you will have people making diagnoses for you over the internet and second guess you to no end. Sometimes its helpful, sometimes not. I can see this cherry being brought back to like again and again over years

You have the option asking the mods to close the thread.

You also have the option of using paragraphs to make it easier for us old farts to read.....

 

[DandyDon]

Yeah, paragraphs help a lot, but he may have been a little peeved about his hit, pain, and risk being questioned as real.

Why it happened could have been 2 deep dives min surface interval, 60FPM ascent should be 30FPM, dehydration, and sleep deprived stressed trying to get to make the flight. The funny part when we flew out a week later we sat in the exact same seats except I sat at the window and my wife had the isle this time. Take this for what you want I'm not giving advice here if you look into DCS it's not clear cut no one knows how there body's will handle nitrogen loading until they load it. One thing I learned was O2 works it made a difference for me. I went off it for about 5 minutes before I got into the chamber and I could feel the symptoms come back. After the chamber treatment I was left with tingling in my lower legs which was gone the next day. I think this has been beaten to death we are planning or next trip soon, and I plan on diving again not below 65 feet.

Sounds great. I hope splashing down for those first few dives won't be too challenging. I can see where they might make a guy a little nervous, but you've identified a number of points for keeping your diving safer so you'll be in good control on all that I bet. I think you said you got a better dive computer? I like to take my cable & laptop on trips, download my dives daily, and look at my ascent graphs. If you decide to do some special, deeper dives - you might add a deep stop at half depth or halfway between bottom and SS depth, plus your SS as that's be proven to help too. I like to do a minute at half and 5 at 15 but some are doing more at half.

As another of the old fart dive club, I do take a mental inventory of where I ache mornings before diving so if I pull a muscle, then notice a pain after diving, I can remember if it was already there. I suspect you had some symptoms before you go on the plane but shrugged them off as being short on sleep, rushed, etc. - but just schedule yourself a nice rest and leisure trip to the airport for future departures.

Have a great trip. ilot: Come back and tell us how it all goes if you don't mind being the bug under the microscope again.

 

[daniel1948]

An email "DAN Safety Stop March 2012" contained a link to a PDF "Flying After Recreational Diving Workshop Proceedings May 2, 2002." On Page 38 is "Flying after multiday repetitive recreational diving," and on page 39 is a chart showing the relative odds of DCS against preflight surface interval. The thing that especially drew my attention is that the odds are very low after 24 hours, but do not reach zero even after 47 hours. In other words, 24 hours is very safe, and an additional 24 hours don't make much difference at all, but the risk, though small, still exists.

IOW, DCS cannot be ruled out even if the diver waited 24 hours, and it cannot hurt to wait 48 hours, though even then a hit is possible.

I feel justified in my habit, whenever possible, of allowing an extra day, spent on land or possibly snorkeling (which I also love to do) before flying.

I mention this here because I think there was some question raised as to whether the OP could have really had a DCS hit given the interval before flying. According to the chart, yes, it is possible, though it should be rare.

(I should admit that I did not read the entire very long and technical-sounding paper.)

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

You are making the assumption that all the cases out to 47 hours contained no false positives. Perhaps someone directly involved in hyperbaric medicine could comment but it appears the decision to treat is often based on ambiguous symptoms like fatigue and tingling (what the OP reported). Those types of symptoms certainly have other potential origins. The medical system has a built in bias to treat DCS in the face of ambiguous symptoms. And anyone treated for DCS is by definition bent. In some of those cases it may not be possible to say with certainty that the treated individual was bent or not. The original poster falls likely falls into that category. It can be said that it was unlikely the OP was bent however.

 

[daniel1948]

All I'm saying is that DCS is possible after 47 hours. The OP flew after 22 hours. Therefore it's not impossible that he was bent. I'm not saying he was, as I am entirely unqualified to judge. But the surface interval in itself is not enough to rule it out.

 

[Blastman4444]

You are making the assumption that all the cases out to 47 hours contained no false positives. Perhaps someone directly involved in hyperbaric medicine could comment but it appears the decision to treat is often based on ambiguous symptoms like fatigue and tingling (what the OP reported). Those types of symptoms certainly have other potential origins. The medical system has a built in bias to treat DCS in the face of ambiguous symptoms. And anyone treated for DCS is by definition bent. In some of those cases it may not be possible to say with certainty that the treated individual was bent or not. The original poster falls likely falls into that category. It can be said that it was unlikely the OP was bent however.

Have you ever been bent? Do you know what it feels like? The medical system treats it because if they didn't the possible outcome could be paralysis. The doctors at St Mary's told me about how they have seen guys show up a few days later dragging a foot or in the ER because they can pee anymore and need a catheter. They thought the tingling was like you said caused by something else I disagree with what your saying. I would like to point out if anyone ever feels these kinds of symptoms get to a dive doctor and have a proper exam no matter what your profile was.

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

Have you ever been bent? Do you know what it feels like? The medical system treats it because if they didn't the possible outcome could be paralysis. The doctors at St Mary's told me about how they have seen guys show up a few days later dragging a foot or in the ER because they can pee anymore and need a catheter. They thought the tingling was like you said caused by something else I disagree with what your saying. I would like to point out if anyone ever feels these kinds of symptoms get to a dive doctor and have a proper exam no matter what your profile was.

Everyone has had the symptoms you reported in circumstances unrelated to diving. Having fatigue after a poor night of sleep may not necessarily be the bends. Tingling after sitting in cramped seat may not necessarily be the bends. Could it have been the bends? Yes but there is no way to know for sure. However given the dive profiles, post dive timeline, ambiguous symptoms with other more probable causes, unusually late presentation and anomalous locations it seems unlikely.

Since you ask I have had fatigue after a dive and that could reasonably be interpreted as a mild form of DCS. However it presented within the hour after the dive which is typical not almost a day later which is not. The problem with being asymptomatic for nearly a day and then having DCS symptoms is that you are getting bent without much inert gas. That is difficult to reconcile.