in a BC quandary

[jackdav]

I was trying to talk one of my LDS managers (there are maybe 8-10 LDS in the metro Phoenix area, but this is where I took lessons and through which SWMBO will be doing her checkout dive next month) into letting me try one of his Zeagle Rangers in his pool. I told him that I wanted to try the Ranger (which he sells a lot of and aparrantly had no small influence upon the design) and try tha SeaQuest Pro Unlimited (which he does not sell), and then buy whichever felt the most comfy. I expected him to say sure, that I sould figure out what I wanted and then buy it .... he's going to make his money from me on further training and air and such. But, no.... he went into what seemed like a tirade. He seemed to suggest that the Pro unlimited was a "fad" BC, worn more for appearances than for any sound reason, and that it's quality of construction (single walled baldder) was so inferior to the Zeagle that anyone who bought a ProUnlimited at any price when they could buy a Ranger from him for 505 + bladder upgrade + lumbar support +taxes (about 650 total by my estimate) really needs their head examined. He also suggested that the dual weight release of the ProUnlimited would be dangerous in the event of needing to ditch ones weight for an emergency ascent. Now I have begun to think that the LDSs are under a lot of pressure from the internet, and that the ones who cannot or will not adapt to a world where the internet is an integral part of commerce still hope to scratch out a few more years of undeserved existence by badmouthing everything but what they sell and how they sell it. But what IS the skinny on the dual weight release??? Is it really that big a drawback? And if so, Why did SeaQuest design it that way?
Feeling like a rag doll in a snake pit here,
Jack

 

[Liquid]

First: Both these BCs are great BCs, top of the line high quality, and let no one tell you diferently.

About the ranger: If you are going for recreational diving you dont need it.

Zeagles BCs are of a highly technicle profile, aspecialy the ranger, and my opinion of it is that it is no good for recreational diving. It creats body positioning problems in the water, and limits your movement on certain aspects.

SeaQuest, on the other hand, with their Spectrum series, created beatifully fitted for recreational diving series of BCs, and though i didnt try the pro-unlimited, I heard it's a great BC on every count.

What the hell do you need double bladder if you are not going to do heavy underwater technic operations?

And to finish it, about the release:
-Dont worry about it, it's completly nonesense. I dive with a weight belt, dived with it for years, never had any problem with it, so ANY kind of integral system that works should be fine also, and dont let anyone crap you about it.

 

[LesleyDSO]

Your LDS manager's selling skills are pretty poor if he has to resort to badmouthing other equipment, or maybe he's a zeagle zealot and his mission in life is to convert the world. Look around at other LDS's - you never know, you might find their selling and training skills better.

I'd prefer to control an emergency ascent with some weight, so I'd rather a system which allows you to remove all or some of your weight, and decide what to do with it. So I see your dual release as an advantage, not a drawback. Look around at some of the others, like the Dive Rite or the Scubapro, and don't be bullied into buying anything on the grounds of your other half doing a check out dive there.

If the person you spoke to is not the owner of the shop, it might be worth a quiet word in the owner's ear. I would certainly want to know if one of my staff was selling in that fashion.

Good luck!

 

[Tavi]

This guy sounds like some local sales people I've talked to.
I took my Business elsewhere
some people think that being able to dump only half or all of your ditchable weight is a good thing, depending on circumstances. I believe that Seaquest was the first to do weight integration. it is a proven design.The Zeagle is an exellent BC also.

Tavi

 

[Lost Yooper]

Hey jack, I've seen plenty of weight integration BC's fail to keep the weights in place, so I personally wouldn't get one with ditchable weight integration.

I don't necesarily disagree with the guy about people buying these type of "tech" BC's for appearance sake, but I would expand it to several models.

I'm not sure what Liquid means when he refers to "body positioning problems in the water". This is twice he's eluding to this (that I've seen). Perhaps he would like to elaborate as this couldn't be more opposite from what I've experienced, seen, and heard.

Since you didn't ask for specific BC recommendations, I will say that I recommend back inflation. I agree 100% with Liquid when he said you don't need dual bladders. The amount of lift you'll need will depend on the diving you intend to do (singles, doubles, etc), but 60lbs would be about max for anything 99.9% of divers are likely to get into. Whatever BC you choose, make sure the wing is replacable with different lift wings to adapt to different situations.

Good luck.

Mike

 

[Liquid]

L.Y-
I will try and elaborate on the "Body positioning" phrase- It's a phrse known too well to me, to think that others dont know it. others mostly dont, as it is a phrase taken from a book that a friend of mine is writing.

Body positioning is the way you position your body in the water. Someone with good body positioning may assume a position in the water, and than, while not moving at all, resume in that position.
for example- staying completly horizontal, like this: =->0 (what a poor drawing ) or in sitting position. it's a part of the fine art of diving, and very hard to achieve in a complete way (imposible actualy). With correct body positioning one can swim very close to obstacles, and still, with slight movements avoid them, again, a part of the fine art of diving. It may be worth a complete thread in itself.

Zeagle and body positioning: the zeagle concentrates the air BEHIND the back of the diver, makes it hard to dive upside down, or backwards, like an instructor leading a groupe in the water, also when swimming close to bottom, the large bladder of the ranger, when not using bungy cords (sometimes also when using it) float around, and may hurt corrals, and belive me, every time I see a coral get hurt, it makes me hurt. when diving in shalow water, when the bc is completly empty, you'll have the whole huge bladder floating around you (im a bit exaggerating, I know) being a reall corall killer.

In short, with such a BC the only way you can dive comfortably is face down. not and the side and not on the back, so it limits your "Body positioning" ability.

 

[Warhammer]

I own a Ranger and I'm very satisfied with it. All of my diving is done on a recreational level and I think it's an excellent BC for that purpose. I've found no problems whatsoever with positioning anywhere in the water column. To the contrary, it gives excellent position in any position that I care to get in. It's only drawback, in that respect, is that it tends to push your face down while at the surface if you overinflate it. But that's not a Ranger specific trait, it's a back-inflation trate and all back bouyancy BCs have this trait. It can be easily counteracted by numerous ways, the easiest of which is to just not over-inflate it. All the inflation you need is enough to comfortably float your head above the water and at that capacity, I don't notice any foward push.

About the double bladder....The ranger comes standard with a single bladder, redundant double bladders are available as an option but I personnally don't see the need for one on a recreational level, but opinions vary. The standard 44lb lift bladder is all you're likely to ever need, then some.

Zeagle's weight release system is a good one, in my opinion. It provides the fastest trouble free release of the weights. You pull the cord and they are gone. I've also never heard of anyone loosing their weights accidentally with the Zeagle system when using the yellow pouch inserts. But I agree with Lesley on this. If given a choice, I'd perfer to be able to release the pockets independantly from one another. And I wish Zeagle would offer that option, but they don't. What they do offer is add-on rear release pockets that could satisfy this and at the same time oliminate the front push described above. But you know, if you stop and think about it, how often will you likely need to dump your weights? Not very often I hope. And if you do need to, are you really going to be of the mindset to release them independantly, then wait for the result, then release the remaining weights if need be? If you have that much time on your hands and are in no immediate danger, then wouldn't you also have enough time to unzip the Ranger's weight pocket, remove the pouch and toss it independantly, then release the other one if need be? I don't know, can't really answer those questions, as I've never been faced with that situation. One thing I can tell you the Zeagle's Rip Cord system is that it doesn't utilize any velcro and that's a good thing. There is no telling how many times I've seen people loose their weight pockets when the velcro turned lose on other BC's systems and that won't happen with the Zeagle. You do need to use the yellow pouches with it though if you plan on putting any smaller weights in it, cause they can slip through the laces.

I'd also say that your on the right track wanting to try, then buy. And I'd say stick to that. If you can't find a shop that sells both BCs, then try and rent them first or find someone else that you can borrow them from. This isn't always easy to do, but after you build a relationship with a dive shop then you'll find most of them more receptive to allowing you to test gear. But that doesn't help you now. In the end, I think you'll be pleased with either of your choices, but I'd try them if there was anyway I could.

 

[Warhammer]

I disagree, Liquid. I have no problem at all getting in and maintaining any position under the sun in my Ranger. I can get just as close to the coral as a guy in a jacket BC, without touching it. Position in the water column is all about bouyancy control, and in my opinion bouyancy control is alot better with back-inlation, not the other way around.

 

[Lost Yooper]

OK Liquid, I understand what you mean now.

Like Warhammer, I am able to do anything I want underwater with my wings, and I've seen (and heard) brand new divers doing the same. My wings keep me perfectly horizontal, and the wings themselves kind of curl around the tank making the rig about as streamlined as possible. With a harness type BC, it's like wearing no BC at all.
The trick to wings is in the weighting. You must be weighted correctly or you'll have problems on the surface. As we all learned, once upon a time, correct weighting has many implications but they can be especially noticable with wings.

 

[BetterLateThannever]

And speaking for the new divers LY alluded to; I also have a Seaquest back inflated BC, and have been able to adjust very quickly. I believe your issues concerning "body position" is a red herring Liquid. I have no problems at the surface because I only inflate it enough to keep my head above water and just lean back and relax.

My buoyancy control at depth has improved steadily with each dive until this weekend when during our treasure hunt, I amazed myself by being able to maintain a distance of mere inches above the bottom strictly by breath control.
For over an hour with not once raising silt. Now if a newbie can do that, how hard can it really be?