Inconsistent message to new divers

[gypsyjim]

I suppose that must have a lot to do with the attitude of the instructor/s that those novice divers encounter during training. If the instructor demonstrates an 'I am an underwater god' mentality, then a student is likely to be less inclined to question other dive pros subsequent to qualification.

I've read enough horror stories here on SB.... and seen enough 'cowboy' professionals with my own eyes. I make sure that my students are educated about the need for personal responsibility...and encourage them to remain cynical about dive pros and insta-buddies. If in doubt, go back to basics and stick with the advice and knowledge you gain in training.

I'm happy for my students to know that I'm fallible as an instructor. When we do buddy checks (I often teach one-to-one) I stress the need for them to not make assumptions - I am human, prone-to-error and need their 'back-up' in a very real sense. I doubt I'd ever need a student's assistance...(but who knows?)...however, at the very least, it adds an element of honesty to the training and dispels any false misconceptions that a student might have about more experienced divers.

I believe in training responsible divers - that means not sugar-coating my training, letting ego get in the way of education or missing an opportunity to shepherd a student into a more self-reliant and self-determining state of mind.

Apologies to my fellow instructors and divemasters.... but my students wouldn't trust you as far as they could throw you.... until you can prove to them otherwise... and even then.... I'd hope they wouldn't succumb to peer (or even worse,... pro) pressure..

Not every instructor is going to be as effective as you at teaching that to every new student. Most new OW are simply not going to be as independent, skilled and self assured as yours.

Expecting all the brand new divers to be able to spot and avoid all the bad DM, "shut up and follow me" scenarios in the travel dive industry would be wonderful, if it could work.

Rather than us continually pointing out how a new diver should not have followed a poor DM, we should focus on exposing those bad DM's, and/or changing the attitude that it is OK to take divers into situations they are not trained for or are not experienced enough to participate in, even if the them self might not be aware of the risk.

We divers should never tolerate such risk taking by ops and/or DM's. Anytime we witness an op taking a diver into such a situation, and we do not call them on it, we are part of the problem. While the new diver may ultimately be responsible for their own safety, our industry should demand much, much more of any "professionals" taking divers, new or experienced, into the water.

If we believe that SB has the reach to change new diver's attitude, how much more effective might we be if we put our focus on continually monitoring the quality of the dive world when we see things we feel are not right? We are more likely threw the internet to be able to effect the bottom line of the offending ops, than we are to reach each and every new diver coming down the pipeline, IMO.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I wish I could multiple like some of these posts!

Seems to me in reading through all the posts that some of the issue is related to translation or definition. It occurs to me that perhaps we need a SB "glossary" or "dictionary". We could then search a word and make sure we are all talking about the same thing!

When people here read about "trust me dives" it is possible we are not thinking of the same thing at all! I think we are "programmed" to do "Trust me dives" during our course by our Instructors and DM's. If we didn't trust them.. we would never get in the water! All we have to go by initially is their word, what they teach us and their estimation of our ability to perform the dives/skills in the course. They are the ones who determine if we are "ready" to pass the course, "ready" to dive on our own etc.

Until we have built up our own experience we are "trusting" someone else to tell us about conditions, currents, viz, swell and a multitude of other things that determine if we should do the dive or not. Mentors are a continuation of the process. We rely on their judgement of the conditions and our skill in the water. We can say we are making an informed choice based on their advice and experience but it is still putting our trust in those things!

I have read on SB about tragic consequences of "trusting". I agree it is great if we can talk to the dive operator and be sure that the dives on offer are within our skill set. The problem here is that the information we are given may be more of a sales pitch than honest information. Then there are cases where the brochure and literature describe a process or dive operation that are closer to a flight of fantasy than facts!

I find myself in 100% agreement with Gypsyjim! We need to address the problem of Dive Operators, Dive Pros and DM's who are not doing the right thing. IMHO too often it is easier to "blame the newbie" than speak out about the unscrupulous who take advantage of the inexperienced. It seems safer to "blame the newbie" than try to hold the operator accountable as recent legal events prove! Yes divers need to take responsibility for themselves and their actions but so do the "Pros" who train them, guide them, take them out on dive trips and make their living within the dive industry.

The other issue is that the dive operators roles are so variable from one region to another. Most believe their instructor was one of the best ones available. If they don't believe that.. they have to question their own skill and "right" to dive. LOL but then most instructors believe THEY are one of the best available too!

Not everyone is capable of questioning the DM/Instructor/leader in a kind/polite or challenging manner! I believe you can say just about anything in a nice way if you make the effort! Unfortunately some people are able to take offense no matter how nicely the message is conveyed. I guess it comes down to being adult enough to take responsibility for our actions and interactions.

IMHO Every time I rely on someone else's knowledge of the conditions of the site I am about to dive is a "trust me dive" to some degree!

 

[Thalassamania]

As a new diver, I am perceiving what seems to be an inconsistency among SB members regarding the level of responsibility expected of newly minted OW divers.

On one hand, most SB'ers emphasize that divers are responsible for their own safety. This becomes particularly apparent in the various threads about accidents or dangerous practices among dive ops. Inevitably, some SB veteran will chime in with a comment like "they received their certification, they should have known better than to trust the DM."

On the other hand, some SB'ers (often those very same vets described above) are eager to point out that OW (and even AOW) are just the beginning. Some go so far as to say that they are nothing more than intro courses and that these certifications are meaningless insofar as their ability to determine at least a minimum level of proficiency.

As an SB member, I agree with the former, but as a new diver, I agree with the latter. All else being equal, those who read boards such as this one are, imo, far more aware of best practices, risks, equipment, etc. than those who do not. Therefore, from our perspective as SB members, yes certified divers should be completely responsible for themselves. In fact one could make the argument that even prospective divers who are avid SB readers should know better than to trust their DM/Instructor.

However, as a new diver, I will also say that it is unrealistic and even to some degree elitist to expect new divers to ignore or disobey their DM/Instructor. Try to remember what it was like to be a brand new diver (yeah it's probably been awhile). There is a good chance that most of your dives immediately after getting your c-card were "trust me" dives.

And now for the flame-bait portion of my post: They SHOULD be "trust me" dives unless the new diver is far more knowledgeable than average. Veterans on SB are fond of saying or implying that new divers should heed the advice of those here who have thousands of dives and years of experience under their belt. And that is true enough. I've learned a ton just reading these boards over the past few months. But these same vets castigate new divers who put their trust in their DM, someone who probably has a similar level of experience as the SB vets and are practicing pro's.

The vast majority of divers (old and new) are not active members of SB or other diving forums. To expect a newbie with maybe 10-20 dives to argue about protocol and safety with a DM who has thousands of dives at that location is ludicrous. NOTE: I'm not saying that a newbie disagreeing with the DM is ludicrous - I'm saying it is ludicrous to EXPECT a newbie to have the courage, stubbornness, or confidence to do so. That kind of expectation is just not fair IMO. If a new OW told his DM that the dive plan was bad because of something he read on the internet, he might very well be laughed off the boat.

I do believe that it's good for new divers to confront DMs and dive ops who do not follow protocol. After all, complacency is probably the single biggest root cause of accidents (while I don't have the figures, I wouldn't be surprised if most accidents happen to more experienced divers - say maybe 50 dives or more). But as commendable as it may be for new divers to have the guts to stand up to the pro's, it should not be expected behavior (unless they've been reading SB!).

I don't really have a much of a point - this is just me observing out loud. But on a related note, I would love to see SB'ers stop blaming new divers for just about everything that goes wrong and apply a proportionate blame to the dive ops who take advantage of a new divers' naivete and lead them into potentially dangerous situations. I think we need to recognize that new divers who do not read SB or other forums probably have no clue that "trust me" dives are bad. You can't be responsible for what you don't know (or maybe you can - what do I know?)

Edit: So my 101st post ended up being potential flame-bait. Good thing this was posted in a flame-free zone! HA!

The cause of stress is a mismatch between authority and responsibility. You express it well.

 

[DevonDiver]

When people here read about "trust me dives" it is possible we are not thinking of the same thing at all! I think we are "programmed" to do "Trust me dives" during our course by our Instructors and DM's. If we didn't trust them.. we would never get in the water!

That's true - although, as mentioned, an instructor can play a role in developing their students' sense of personal responsibility and risk awareness/assessment. Simply encouraging students to set their own prudent personal limits is a big step towards that goal - however, all to often courses are taught from the perspective that X qualification equals X depth/dive limit etc.

On the same vein, most training courses do involve an instructor taking a student beyond their experience threshold.... and yes, that does involve a modicum of trust on behalf of the student. However, those dives are closely controlled by the limitations of agency standards. They are progressive in nature and, most importantly, ensure that the student diver possess the knowledge and skills needed to safely conduct the dive before getting in the water.

In contrast, a dive pro who takes a non-student on a "trust me" dive will typically not have made any provision to prepare that diver for any level of self-sufficiency through education or prior training. Neither will that dive pro have any accurate, or assured, understanding of the strengths, weaknesses and capabilities of the diver they are "assuring".

If I take a student on a specialty training Deep Dive to 40m, then I have already spent time with them in the classroom, ensuring they know the issues, risks - and techniques to mitigate those risk. I've also progressively increased their experience - with associated training, feedback and, if necessary remedial correction. Then, and only then, do we plan and conduct a dive to 40m. On that dive, I have a reasonable assurance that the student is safe and prepared...and able to complete the dive - in the unlikely event that anything should happen to remove them from my safe supervision.

A divemaster who takes an unknown diver/customer to 40m, with no prior preparation, training or knowledge of their competence.... on the basis of "eh... you'll be ok mate... I'll look after you... it's easy!" cannot honestly share the same confidence that I do.... and neither should the diver concerned.

In reality, there is NO fine-line between a formal training dive... and a "trust me" dive.

 

[Thalassamania]

Every dive I make, even with students, is ... to some degree ... a two-way trust me dive.

 

[Centrals]

Every time I rely on someone else's knowledge of the conditions of the site I am about to dive is a "trust me dive" to some degree!

When the dm said "negetive entry otherwise the surface current will carry you away". What choice do I have? Follow him/her or sit out the dive.
It is all down to my experience and the "trust" on the dm.

 

[flots am]

When the dm said "negetive entry otherwise the surface current will carry you away". What choice do I have? Follow him/her or sit out the dive.
It is all down to my experience and the "trust" on the dm.

Unless this was discussed and agreed to before, if it's a recreational boat full of random unknown divers, the response should be "Should I call the Coast Guard now, or wait until you report the dead and missing?"

flots.

 

[DevonDiver]

When the dm said "negetive entry otherwise the surface current will carry you away". What choice do I have? Follow him/her or sit out the dive.
It is all down to my experience and the "trust" on the dm.

Translates as:

"What choice do I have? Do something I know is beyond my training and experience - thus presenting what I know is a danger.... or bow to peer pressure / convenience / arrogance / ego and ignore the training, recommendations and advice I have been given since I first enrolled on a scuba class?"

No just lacking training or experience... but when feeling apprehension... that 'nagging little doubt'.... concern over kit or conditions....

I wonder how many scuba fatalities would have been avoided, if the victims had not succumbed to pressure and otherwise sat out on dives they were apprehensive about for some reason....?

I'm sure you can think of examples Centrals....

There's a bunch of good advice.... baseline stuff.... foundations.... that we're exposed to throughout our evolution as divers... it's a roadmap to safety and common sense:

- Dive within the limits of your training and experience.
- Plan your dive, dive your plan.
- Set your own personal limits.
- Any diver can abort any dive, at any time, for any reason.
- Always err on the side of caution.
- Dive conservatively.

and so on and so on and so on....

 

[Centrals]

Every dive I make, even with students, is ... to some degree ... a two-way trust me dive.

Absolutely.
If I do not trust myself, I won't jump in.
If I do not trust the buddy, he/she will be diving with someone else.
If I do not trust the dm, I go to other shop. But if I had not dived with that dm before, how could I tell he/she is/not up to it?
At the end of the day, we are all responsible to our own action. Blame no one.

I remember my IANTD training:
Only you can think for yourself
Only you can swim for yourself
Only you can dive for yourself

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Doing an unknown dive site while relying on the advice of someone who has done it before isn't a trust-me dive ... doing a dive that you know is beyond your ability while relying on someone of greater experience to keep you safe is.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)