Instructor tactics (split from accident thread)

[carldarl]

Bob and Steve, thank you for moving the thread. I agree.

Steve,

If I misinterpretted your post I appologize. But, the statement "Of course my intention was to lure him deeper. I hardly had to try at all, as was expected." does lead me to believe you were leading the dive and you intentionally lured/tricked him/her deeper. I also assumed you were his buddy as you hadn't mentioned any other divers. I see little difference in whether it was "you" leading them deeper or another instructor (person of authority) leading them. Also, if you weren't his/her buddy, I again assume the other instructor was

My questions is:
How would one lure someone else deeper other than leading them there? If there were indeed two instructors and one student as you indicate above (hope I am not misreading it again) did the other instructor lead them down? If not being led deeper, how did you do it? I am truly curious to know.

There are many different methods of teaching and many different types of students. I just personally believe the method you describe is counterproductive. At least for me.

Looking forward to learning more from your methods as I am always ready and willing to increase my inderstanding of this wonderful sport.

Carl

PS... Had to add, I now have a small red spot on my forehead. Just got back from a short (11 minute, 17 feet) pond dive. The red spot came from the concrete block I turned into with the 1-2 foot viz. At least we got wet. Bummer was I had my new scripted lenses in my mask for the first time. $157 to see 2 feet. ilot: Kinda like goin instrument with no guages...

 

[TSandM]

Having done my AOW when I was still in a majorly dependent diver state, I have to say that I would almost certainly have followed my instructor deeper if that's where he went. Largely because I really would not have wanted to be abandoned underwater (and remember I dive in cold water and bad viz).

On the other hand, if the instructor had said beforehand that there would be challenges in the curriculum where his interest was whether I would recognize that we were violating the dive plan, I would have understood that this was an EXERCISE, and would have stopped and indicated to the instructor that I would not follow. This single change would convert a bewildering and stressful situation to a recognizable learning experience.

 

[*Floater*]

In the army one of my trainers there would give us the wrong instructions on purpose and then scold us. He wasn't doing it to be an a-hole, he just wanted us to learn to use our brains instead of just blindly doing what we were told or following others without thinking. I thought he was one of the better guys there. His lesson would probably be even better suited for scuba diving.

 

[WileEDiver]

just the past weekend a newly certified person with just 4 OW dives joined our group.

a group of Dive instructors and DMs. without objection from any other instructors we proceeded to dive deep, 102ft. we did the descent very slowly checking the newly certified person.

after two days of diving all the instructors and DM agreed that the newly certified OW has done Deep, Boat, Drift diving with flying colors. she actually wanted to do night diving however not one of the pros wanted to do night diving.

so with that we agreed that she is just needs to do Underwater nav. and one more skill to be certified as AOW.

This sounds like a "how many things can you find wrong in this story" challenge. Without even thinking hard, the following concern me:

Even assuming all performance requirements for each dive were met, you say nothing about paperwork. Was there no signed holy trinity of paperwork (Liability Release and Assumption of Risk Agreement, Medical Statement, and Standard Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding) prior to entering the water? What about knowledge reviews (which don't have to be done prior to the dives--just prior to certification, but would the reasonably prudent scuba instructor have someone do a deep dive without having read the material and verified understanding first)? Were proper briefings conducted? Was one of the instructors one that had seen her in her Open Water class or had dived with her before these dives? If not, was a preassessment performed? Did the student stay above 100' for the deep dive.

I'm certainly not saying none of these were done (hell, I wasn't even there), but if any weren't, standards certainly appear to have been violated.

I'm just concerned that some may have read this post and think that all that is required for certification is to "do the dives". That's just not the case. At least not if it's to be done properly.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Interesting read...but why should a diver that hasn't demonstrated the ability to follow a plan, modify it on the fly (go to backups) in response to problems or maintain control of depth/buddy awareness be diving deep in the first place.

Gosh the challenge in teaching AOW is that you almost never get a student enrolled who's ready to be doing a 100 ft dive. They want to do a few OW dives following instructors/DM's and then start doing deep dives while following. Training standards not only allow it but maybe even encourage it.

I'm all for drilling the daylights out of them but, depending on the drill, maybe not at max depth. With AOW students, I always did lots of skill pre-assessment and remediation at very shallow depths before trying to go deep or do complex tasks. Someone who can't hold their depth or keep track of a buddy doesn't need to be tieing nots, using lift bags or any other such nonsense. Some one who can't keep their fins out of the mud won't make anything but a BIG mess if they try to do a rope search. Honest. LOL

The theory is simple. In entry level training we should learn "how to" in confined water and gain experience in OW. Following that, and in more general terms, we should learn new skills in controlled conditions (a realative thing) and gain experience using them in the environment that we're training for.

Now days we do things backwards by taking stuednts deep while they still aren't any good shallow and it does get people hurt.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Good read folks. Glad everyone found it over here.

Carl: To answer your question, I had a well skilled assistant playing the bad buddy. As Mike says, you don't have to be "deep" to do this, just deep enough to satisfy certain criteria, to me that means as shallow as possible however. On my sign, the bad buddy was to (without being obvious) lead the student deeper........as suggested, I was looking for situational awareness and a decision to be made by the student. The drill gets cut when the decision (or not) is made.

This dive is of course not in a vacuum, but is part of an entire "immersion (long) weekend". 6hrs of class plus dive plans, field work top-side, briefs and debriefs.

Two folks have mentioned scolding.........doesn't happen. This is supposed to be fun, not the military (been there done that), however, what this is not is your typical 5 dives here's your card nonsense. The debriefs were more about what the student was thinking during those times of "decision making", and possible suggestions of what to do when faced with these types of situations without the aid of an Instructor on you like glue the whole time.

Seriously, if you can't plan and carry out a proper dive, and deal with Murphy when he comes to visit, stay in 20ft of water or better yet, stop diving and save some grief. You don't learn to dive by being lead by the hand all the time. The student even mentioned what a thought provoking weekend he'd had. He was actaully chuckling at the situations after it was all said and done, and realized just how seriously deep in doo-doo you can get within minutes of any dive.

Amongst other things he realized you're ruled by the depth, gas supply and the clock. Don't deviated, and get a bad buddy/awry dive sorted out.

Intense? Only a little. It would do little good to scare or over-task an individual to complete failure. This is a major no-no in my books.

From the feed back I've gotten to date, I am totally convinced that this type of education, with some modifications for individual students (Pre-assesment figures this out) works well.

Regards

 

[countryboy]

When he (Steve) mentioned the 2 - 1 ratio ... People should have seen what the "lure" was....

Steve, very thought provoking instruction...

 

[gangrel441]

Ahh...and there's the details of the dive plan that give the whole thing perspective. 100% in our court now, Steve. Cheers!

 

[BDub]

I want an instructor (teacher) who will challenge me. I want someone who will chew me out when I screw up. I want an instructor who will piss me off and try to trick me.

I think most students, when diving with their instructor (whether their instructor is their assigned buddy, or just supervising), are going to 'follow'. It's inherent in the class...they are paying for supervised diving and to learn. If the instructor goes deeper than the predetermined plan, the students are going to follow, wondering what is going on. If their buddy is a divemaster, another dive professional, they are going to follow them as well.

I think you can be greatly challenged without being tricked. On a deep dive, how about planning the dive (after discussing and learning the procedures for a 'deep dive' with your instructor), using max depth, turn pressure (calculating this before the dive using your sac/rmv rates), communication skills, etc? Most students will mess up on at least one of those things on their first deep dive on their own, without being tricked. That will make an even greater impact in the debrief...talking about a mistake they made on their own, without being tricked.

I understand the point in seeing how the student uses judgement underwater, but I also think the more important issue is how the student uses judgement above water, before getting in. I stress the importance of BOTH (or all) dive team members discussing the entire plan (from turn pressure, to max depth, communication procedures, contingencies, etc) and being on the same page BEFORE they get in the water...and more importantly...choosing the right buddy. There will be plenty of red flags in the the briefing if this is a buddy they probably don't want to dive with. And if a deviation to that plan occurs, the dive is thumbed (in the case of being lured deeper, I suppose a simple 'no' and thumb up by the student would be appropriate, but I don't see that occuring with an instructor or dm present).

As far as being challenged, many students at that level are challenged enough just adhering to the plan, but we'll throw in OOA's (where they are not allowed to just drop and kneel and do the reg switch) among other things.

Nothing at all against Steve's class, I see the logic, but I also think the students should be given all the tools and be allowed to make mistakes on their own, they will make a mistake (to a lesser or greater degree) on each of their training dives. It's up to the instructor to make it challenging enough to ensure that happens.

Just my .02

Brian

 

[Scuba_Steve]

<snip>
I think you can be greatly challenged without being tricked. On a deep dive, how about planning the dive (after discussing and learning the procedures for a 'deep dive' with your instructor), using max depth, turn pressure (calculating this before the dive using your sac/rmv rates), communication skills, etc? Most students will mess up on at least one of those things on their first deep dive on their own, without being tricked. That will make an even greater impact in the debrief...talking about a mistake they made on their own, without being tricked.

I understand the point in seeing how the students uses judgement underwater, but I also think the more important issue is how the student uses judgement above water, before getting in. I stress the importance of BOTH (or all) dive team members discussing the entire plan (from turn pressure, to max depth, communication procedures, contingencies, etc) and being on the same page BEFORE they get in the water...and more importantly...choosing the right buddy. There will be plenty of red flags in the the briefing if this is a buddy they probably don't want to dive with. And if a deviation to that plan occurs, the dive is thumbed (in the case of being lured deeper, I suppose a simple 'no' and thumb up by the student would be appropriate, but I don't see that occuring with an instructor or dm present).

As far as being challenged, many students at that level are challenged enough just adhering to the plan, but we'll throw in OOA's (where they are not allowed to just drop and kneel and do the reg switch) among other things.

Nothing at all against Steve's class, I see the logic, but I also think the students should be given all the tools and be allowed to make mistakes on their own, they will make a mistake (to a lesser or greater degree) on each of their training dives. It's up to the instructor to make it challenging enough to ensure that happens.

Just my .02

<snip>

Brian

Again Brian, you were not there, and I can guarantee to you, since this too was not mentioned by myself yet, that this dive was planned in every facet you describe above by the student. I'm there to ensure he makes a manageable mistake if he's not overly willing to do it on his own.......which does happen.

I expect a level of understanding from those reading this stuff that evidently some do not have. What I mean is, I expect those reading to already know that the dives are being planned after being taught how to do so.....what the heck do people think we were doing for 6hrs in the class?

SAC's, time, depth, comm's, M/Level planning etc etc etc ad naseum. Not suprisingly, all new stuff to this diver which is why IMO you have to do the classroom before the diving, or it is just another paid, mostly useless, tour guide.

If I have to say this on every post, it really does show the level of ridiculously low standards here.

Again, we are looking at this as a one dive wonder, when I've already said it is to be taken as a whole course, an immersion in what it means to be AOW certified IMO. I really can't help anyone reading this if they don't understand the basics are done and pre-qualified before we hit the drink. How could the student manage these simple basics otherwise?

We're talking in circles now, with incorrect assumptions being made all over the place.

And no, I'm not going to spend 10hrs typing it out!

Regards