Instructor tactics (split from accident thread)

[BDub]

Again Brian, you were not there, and I guarantee you since this too was not mentioned by myself yet, that this dive was planned in every facet you describe above by the student.

I expect a level of understanding from those reading this stuff that evidently some do not have. What I mean is, I expect those reading to already know that the dives are being planned after being taught how to do so.....what the heck do you think we were doing for 6hrs?

SAC's, time, depth, comm's, M/Level planning etc etc etc ad naseum. Not suprisingly, all new stuff to this diver which is why IMO you have to do the classroom before the diving, or it is just another paid, mostly useless, tour guide.

If I have to say this on every post, it really does show the level of ridiculously low standards here.

Again, you are looking at this as a one dive wonder, when I've already said it is to be taken as a whole course, an immersion in what it means to be AOW certified IMO. I really can't help anyone reading this if they don't understand the basics are done and pre-qualified before we hit the drink. How could the student manage these simple basics otherwise?

We're talking in circles now, with incorrect assumptions being made all over the place.

And no, I'm not going to spend 10hrs typing it out!

Regards

Steve, my reply was more directed towards sandjeep, who stated he wanted to be tricked and chewed out when he screws up.

In response to your reply to me...IMO, AOW is many times 5 (or 6, depending on agency) guided tours. The deep dive is done to show the student what narcosis feels like, and very little emphasis is put on planning, gas management, etc. Additionally, SAC rates, etc are not required learning in the AOW classes.

Last month, an instructor here in Seattle had 2 actual OOA's on the SAME DIVE on the deep dive in an Advanced Class. I'm sorry if you feel that there are "ridiculously low standards here", but with the way many AOW's are taught, I think it's understandable for someone to be a little skeptical when an instructor talks about 'luring' a student (again, I understand your reasoning) deeper than the plan on a deep dive, but hasn't stated what is discussed and taught prior to the dive.

One instructor may consider "We are going to go to 100' and have you do some math on this slate to show you how narc'd you are. Remember to watch your gauge closely because you will go through your air faster..." as a perfectly acceptable briefing. That, in my experience, is unfortunately quite common.

I'm sorry if you feel I don't have your "expected level of understanding" because I don't just automatically assume that you teach the stuff I listed in my post. You evidently do teach those, and I applaud you for it. Unfortunately, that is not the norm, in my experience.

Brian

 

[Scuba_Steve]

I understand Brian, and my reply was mostly NOT for you, and I was actually changing it as you wrote this post to ensure we were on the same page my friend.

I think if you had read my posts more thoroughly before hand, you could have been reasonably sure things are done pretty safely and without short-cuts. But I do understand your skepticism!

I readily admit to teaching what I feel are required topics whether they are a written part of the adventure dive outline or not.

If someone is going to go and kill themelves, I require it to be clear in my mind if I was their AOW Instructor that it wasn't because I failed them in some way.

Have a good one. Keep up the good work.

Steve

P.S> EDIT:

2 OOA on the same dive.....how so? Please tell more. This is truly a rare event for well planned dives. I'd also inquire about the knowledge and skill that is required to manage 4 students on their Deep adventure dive when there is always a possiblity of having one or more real situations at the same time. I just don't have an answer that is acceptable to me, so I simply choose to not do it that way.

 

[BDub]

I understand Brian, and my reply was mostly NOT for you, and I was actually changing it as you wrote this post to ensure we were on the same page my friend.

I think if you had read my posts more thoroughly before hand, you could have been reasonably sure things are done pretty safely and without short-cuts. But I do understand your skepticism!

I readily admit to teaching what I feel are required topics whether they are a written part of the adventure dive outline or not.

If someone is going to go and kill themelves, I require it to be clear in my mind if I was their AOW Instructor that it wasn't because I failed them in some way.

Have a good one. Keep up the good work.

Steve

P.S> EDIT:

2 OOA on the same dive.....how so? Please tell more. This is truly a rare event for well planned dives. I'd also inquire about the knowledge and skill that is required to manage 4 students on their Deep adventure dive when there is always a possiblity of having one or more real situations at the same time. I just don't have an answer that is acceptable to me, so I simply choose to not do it that way.

Thanks for the clarification Steve.

I did not witness the incident, though I personally know 2 people who did. It was explained to me that 1 student ran out of air on the ascent, but still relatively deep, and had to do an air share with a divemaster. The second incident occured within minutes of the first, and was a similar situation. To expand any more would be pure speculation on my part. Too many issues to discuss, wouldn't even know where to start....

Brian

 

[gangrel441]

Thanks for the clarification Steve.

I did not witness the incident, though I personally know 2 people who did. It was explained to me that 1 student ran out of air on the ascent, but still relatively deep, and had to do an air share with a divemaster. The second incident occured within minutes of the first, and was a similar situation. To expand any more would be pure speculation on my part. Too many issues to discuss, wouldn't even know where to start....

Brian

Just to clarify....this was one instructor that had two OOA students on the same dive? No other divers in the water? The only way I can think of that working logistically is for one OOA to be on the octo, and the instructor and the other OOA to be buddy breathing off the instructor's primary. If so, you can say what you want about his dive planning skills, but that solution really takes a cool head!!!

 

[Scuba_Steve]

He stated the guy had a divemaster for the first OOA student. Unfortunately I am bound to say little else about this hearsay CF.

The only thing I can say in general is I'm suprised we (as a collective) don't kill more than we do......Did I think that out loud?

Doesn't it just speak volumes?

/Steve out

 

[gangrel441]

He stated the guy had a divemaster for the first OOA student. Unfortunately I am bound to say little else about this hearsay CF.

The only thing I can say in general is I'm suprised we (as a collective) don't kill more than we do......Did I think that out loud?

Doesn't it just speak volumes?

/Steve out

I know I have been on dives with plenty who have left me wondering if Charles Darwin himself is calling them for weekly status repots.

I may not be an instructor (yet), but my permenant dive buddy and I never have any doubts in our minds that this is a life-or-death activity, and we treat it with the respect it deserves.

 

[Xanthro]

2 OOA on the same dive.....how so? Please tell more. This is truly a rare event for well planned dives.

This actually happened to me on my AOW deep dive. I'd already been deep(between 60 and 100) a number of times, but student one had only done 2 dives post OW and the student two had done all his training and other dives with a different instructor and his skill level was thus unknown.

The dive plan was to drop to 40 feet, perform some simple tasks both for timing and to asses students two's skill (We knew the student one was not the strongest diver.) Then follow the contour down to 100 feet and perform the same tests. I was buddied with the first student, the instructor with the second. My buddies air was dropping pretty fast, under 2000 at 60 feet. Student 2 got caught in kelp, how I have no idea as this group was behind me. I helped free him and he was under 2000 psi as well.

We continued down and my buddies air was going faster than a free flow. Under 1000 psi at 90 feet. He was supposed to tell me when it hit 1500, and I had to check his gauge. Time to turn the dive, before we hit depth.

Swimming back along the contour to shallower water, my buddies air just plumented and it was obvious he wouldn't make it to the surface. Then I noticed student two was MISSING. The instructor and I quickly decided I'd search for the missing student and he'd share air with my buddy. By 60 feet my buddy was totally OOA.

Supply itself wasn't an issue as both the instructor and I have well over 2000 PSI each. I believe I was still at 2500.

I searched for the missing student while keeping site of the instructor and other student. After a few minutes, I noticed the missing student floating at the surface, he was swimming slowly toward the boat, so he didn't appear to be in immediate danger.

I informed the instructor and the remaining three of us surface after our safety stop. Then swim topside to the boat.

I ended the dive with just under 2000 PSI. It turns out that student two was OOA as well and surfaced without telling anyone. A debriefing with the instructor showed that student two was either lieing about his air or can't read, as he indicated he had over 2000 psi. Yes, hand signals were part of the dive plan. Also, student two appeared to have simply dove off in some random direction leaving the instructor, and swam back into the kelp and lost sight of everyone.

I was apprehensive about doing the next dive, peak performance bouyancy, but that went off without any problems. I won't comment on the other students skill in this area though. Also, the instructor's wife joined in this dive and the next as well as another set of eyes to keep track of student two.

Third dive was a nature dive. Once again student two just took off and basically outswam instructor's wife who couldn't keep up with him. She came and got me and the rest of us decided that the instructor would take student one back to the boat, wife would remain with me, and I'd search for student two. Both the instructor and his wife are over 55 and while excellent divers, aren't the fast divers and student two while a horrible diver, is faster than both.

I finally found him wandering in the kelp again (I don't know why his fascination with kelp). Told him to follow me, he agreed. 15 seconds later he just takes off as fast as he can directly away from me and the boat. I notice and give chase, catch him and basically drag him back to the instructor's wife. (She had spotted my light and was coming toward us). Had to check students guage, under 500 psi, at 40 feet. Obviously end of dive. He blew the safety stop because he couldn't maintain bouyancy without holding on to something. Long surface swim to the boat AGAIN.

Student two was failed on the spot. Not sure if student one was given his C-Card or not.

If students do not inform you of their actual air, and do not communicate, and suddenly change their breath rate, it's pretty easy for them to go OOA on a deep dive. I was shocked at how fast they went through their air. How does someone using 2500 PSI when I've used 500?

Sorry for such a long post, just wanted to explain how I've personally seen this rare occurrence. I will agree, it should NEVER happen. It does prove, than even when everything is planned, thing can quickly go wrong and you need to be able to adapt.

 

[PavoDive]

Again Brian, you were not there, and I can guarantee to you, since this too was not mentioned by myself yet, that this dive was planned in every facet you describe above by the student.

...

I expect a level of understanding from those reading this stuff that evidently some do not have. What I mean is, I expect those reading to already know that the dives are being planned ...

...

And no, I'm not going to spend 10hrs typing it out!

Regards

Steve,
I think this is the root of the misunderstanding, at least in my case. What you initially said in post #2 is just a limited part of the whole picture you later described in post#26. That context you give to the "lure him deeper" part really makes a difference, just as TsandM said. I think we're talking the same language now...

Ahh...and there's the details of the dive plan that give the whole thing perspective. 100% in our court now, Steve. Cheers!

Agreed!

 

[awestholm]

As someone who's just beginning o/w, I too would like an instructor that will "play tricks" on me... I don't think it's appropriate for all students, but I think it would be a useful experience for ME. I'd be happy to have an o/w instructor that taught as some have in the past, taking off my mask, turning off my air, and snatching my regulator at random.

Being a martial artist, I know that it's one thing to practice a sequence of movements/actions under a controlled circumstance, and that has it's place. But I don't feel like you truly have command of those actions 'til you can perform them instinctually under stress.

Of course, I think there are probably a lot of students who wouldn't be comfortable with that kind of situation. Also, I have no experience with AOW, so I might have different opinions when that time comes...

 

[sandjeep]

But I don't feel like you truly have command of those actions 'til you can perform them instinctually under stress.

Of course, I think there are probably a lot of students who wouldn't be comfortable with that kind of situation.

Well said. Maybe this kind of instruction is not for everyone and not every instructor would be good at it. I, however, would welcome the stress, knowing that I must perform correctly and adapt to changing situations. I would think that people would want the hardest training avail.

I have no problem with an instructor chewing me out or pissing me off if the goal is first rate instruction. I never take it personally. Learning in this manner tends to stay with you for life. Knowing that I might be tricked just makes me pay attention that much closer.